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> Is that useful? I'm sure to somebody who already knows what they want out of nix it is, but the first thing I'm told is that shell environments exist and are

> Is that useful? I'm sure to somebody who already knows what they want out of nix it is, but the first thing I'm told is that shell environments exist and are useful to "use the tool without having to install the software.". Ok, but what if I want to install the software? Why would you go to https://nixos.org/learn.html https://nixos.org/learn.html, click on an introductory example titled "Ad-hoc developer environments" and complain that it doesn't explain how to permanently install software? > but there's no real explanation to give me knowledge to expand upon Again, you're pointing to a page containing TLDR examples. That's not the right place for an in-depth explanation. > There's not just a step missing here, there's an entire floor, possibly building. It's like the nix community saw how git is taught and went "we can do worse". No surprise because you missed the entire manual.

masklinn 4y ago
> Why would you go to https://nixos.org/learn.html https://nixos.org/learn.html, click on an introductory example titled "Ad-hoc developer environments" and complain that it doesn't explain how to permanently install software? Because it's also the one labelled "First Steps with Nix". As in, the big orange button which immediately follows "Install Nix", and the second thing the Nix community apparently wants me to do to learn nix. I literally did three things: I opened the nix website, I clicked "learn" (it's also what you get when you click "getting started" from the front page by the way), assumed I'd installed nix (I did check if there was seemingly critical information there, there isn't) then I clicked the following step. I'm not quite sure what you'd want me to do. > Again, you're pointing to a page containing TLDR examples. That's not the right place for an in-depth explanation. I'm not asking for an in-depth explanation, I'm asking for pointers to the surface basics. The page tells me that "we’ll cover that in later tutorials" but I've no idea where those are, and none of the 5 links listed in the "next steps" seems helpful in any way. The least unpromising one ("Nix language basics") certainly didn't tell me anything about python.withPackages. And again it's not "a page containing TLDR examples", it's what the website told me to start with. > No surprise because you missed the entire manual. The manuals which are at the bottom of the page (so one would assume the things to check after the one at the top of the page)? And which are if anything even worse? The first one ("Nix Manual") goes directly from "you can upgrade packages" and "nix lets you rollback profiles" to "the nix language" to "advanced topics: remote builds". I still have no answer to any of my question, but now I know that I can configure how many cores Nix will use when it builds derivations. I still don't know what a nix project is or why I would want one, why I would want a derivation, though the manual does tell me they're important (why?)
- soraminazuki 4y ago
  I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Making persistent changes is exactly the kind of thing that is better avoided before users have had the chance to learn anything. > And again it's not "a page containing TLDR examples", it's what the website told me to start with. So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. > And which are if anything even worse? The first one ("Nix Manual") goes directly from "you can upgrade packages" and "nix lets you rollback profiles" to "the nix language" to "advanced topics: remote builds". What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned.
  - user5678 4y ago
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  - masklinn 4y ago
    > I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. And if I have to type `nix-shell -p python38` every time I want to run Python and `nix-shell -p vimMinimal` every time I want to edit a file, the experiment is not going to last long. > So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. I'm not "insisting otherwise", I'm observing that it's confusing, utterly useless, and provides no real guidance towards improvement. And it's where the site told me to go as my second step into nix. But apparently you're perfectly happy that this is what the "first steps with nix" should be (after having berated me for going there), so... proving the point I guess. > What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned. Have you actually looked at them? ever? 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. 2 is a few basic commands expanded upon in (4) 3 is a lot of time spent on installation details 4 is where the meat starts, "You can upgrade package" is 4.1, "profiles are a thing" is 4.2, 4.3 is "nix will eat your disk space" (useless to a beginner), 4.4 is "channels" (even worse), 4.5 is "sharing packages between machines" which could not be less useful at this point./ 5 is, as I said, "the nix language" covering the basics, with 5.4 mentioning derivations and going into plenty of details, none of them actually useful or telling a beginner why they should care Following which we reach 6.1 "remote builds. From a beginner's perspective, tits on a bull are at least funny, the nix manual doesn't even have that going for it. Have a nice day, I'm done wasting time on you.

masklinn 4y ago

> Why would you go to https://nixos.org/learn.html https://nixos.org/learn.html, click on an introductory example titled "Ad-hoc developer environments" and complain that it doesn't explain how to permanently install software? Because it's also the one labelled "First Steps with Nix". As in, the big orange button which immediately follows "Install Nix", and the second thing the Nix community apparently wants me to do to learn nix. I literally did three things: I opened the nix website, I clicked "learn" (it's also what you get when you click "getting started" from the front page by the way), assumed I'd installed nix (I did check if there was seemingly critical information there, there isn't) then I clicked the following step. I'm not quite sure what you'd want me to do. > Again, you're pointing to a page containing TLDR examples. That's not the right place for an in-depth explanation. I'm not asking for an in-depth explanation, I'm asking for pointers to the surface basics. The page tells me that "we’ll cover that in later tutorials" but I've no idea where those are, and none of the 5 links listed in the "next steps" seems helpful in any way. The least unpromising one ("Nix language basics") certainly didn't tell me anything about python.withPackages. And again it's not "a page containing TLDR examples", it's what the website told me to start with. > No surprise because you missed the entire manual. The manuals which are at the bottom of the page (so one would assume the things to check after the one at the top of the page)? And which are if anything even worse? The first one ("Nix Manual") goes directly from "you can upgrade packages" and "nix lets you rollback profiles" to "the nix language" to "advanced topics: remote builds". I still have no answer to any of my question, but now I know that I can configure how many cores Nix will use when it builds derivations. I still don't know what a nix project is or why I would want one, why I would want a derivation, though the manual does tell me they're important (why?)

soraminazuki 4y ago
I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Making persistent changes is exactly the kind of thing that is better avoided before users have had the chance to learn anything. > And again it's not "a page containing TLDR examples", it's what the website told me to start with. So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. > And which are if anything even worse? The first one ("Nix Manual") goes directly from "you can upgrade packages" and "nix lets you rollback profiles" to "the nix language" to "advanced topics: remote builds". What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned.
- user5678 4y ago
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- masklinn 4y ago
  > I still don't get why "first steps with Nix" has to include installing packages permanently. Because if I don't know nix (which, you know, would be why I'd be reading introductory material) I'd be looking to use it, and my basis would be to do would be the way every other distro works. And if I have to type `nix-shell -p python38` every time I want to run Python and `nix-shell -p vimMinimal` every time I want to edit a file, the experiment is not going to last long. > So the website recommended you to read a page containing introductory examples. Not sure why you insist otherwise. I'm not "insisting otherwise", I'm observing that it's confusing, utterly useless, and provides no real guidance towards improvement. And it's where the site told me to go as my second step into nix. But apparently you're perfectly happy that this is what the "first steps with nix" should be (after having berated me for going there), so... proving the point I guess. > What? The there are far more chapters in the Nix manual than just the three you mentioned. Have you actually looked at them? ever? 1 is a quick overview of the entire thing, none of it actually helpful. 2 is a few basic commands expanded upon in (4) 3 is a lot of time spent on installation details 4 is where the meat starts, "You can upgrade package" is 4.1, "profiles are a thing" is 4.2, 4.3 is "nix will eat your disk space" (useless to a beginner), 4.4 is "channels" (even worse), 4.5 is "sharing packages between machines" which could not be less useful at this point./ 5 is, as I said, "the nix language" covering the basics, with 5.4 mentioning derivations and going into plenty of details, none of them actually useful or telling a beginner why they should care Following which we reach 6.1 "remote builds. From a beginner's perspective, tits on a bull are at least funny, the nix manual doesn't even have that going for it. Have a nice day, I'm done wasting time on you.