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I mean, that's a theory I have heard, and subscribed too, but what's an actual example of this occurring in history? Nationalism and aggression was baked into

by enkid 4y ago

I mean, that's a theory I have heard, and subscribed too, but what's an actual example of this occurring in history? Nationalism and aggression was baked into Nazi Germany and Italy from the get go. Japan went to war in China in the 1930s not because of a ruling clique that wanted to maintain power, but because of the rogue actions of military officers. The subsequent declaration of war was about losing in China vs. internal political pressure. The USSR's invasions of it's neighbors in the 20s through the 40s ( and then periodically in the Cold War) went unpunished until it collapsed. It's invasion of Afghanistan might fit, but that wasn't driven by Nationalism, but rather by a Marxist view of history. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait didn't lead to his downfall, that was more his incident lie that he had WMDs. Portugal and Spain had Nationalist governments well into the 70s that seemed pretty stable. The only example I can really think of is maybe Serbia during the break up of Yugoslavia? But that hardly feels like a generalizable example.

option 4y ago
current russia is a great example of this
- enkid 4y ago
  Putin had no need to invade Ukraine to maintain his power.
LarryMullins 4y ago
> Japan went to war in China in the 1930s not because of a ruling clique that wanted to maintain power, but because of the rogue actions of military officers. This is myopic. Yes, the Manchurian Incident was kicked off the invasion of Manchuria and then the Second Sino-Japanese War was a rogue act by a few officers. But that was just the spark that started a bonfire; who piled all the wood up? Who was responsible for the decades of military buildup that preceded it? Were the acquisition of all those battleships and carriers a series of rogue acts as well? Before WW2, the Japanese government spent decades trying to maneuver Japan into being an imperialist world power that could rival America or the UK. The 'ruling clique' of Japan didn't strike the first spark, but they did labor to engineer the circumstance in which such a spark would inevitably find ample fuel to burn.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  After World War 1, Japan grabbed parts of Siberia, Manchuria and hundreds of formerly German held islands. There was a huge earthquake and subsequent fire that destroyed Tokyo on September 1st, 1923. Here I quote a 1928 atlas from its article about Japan, after it mentions the then recent earthquake: "The old saying which everyone is familiar with: "It's an ill wind which blows no one good," seems to be the case so far as the Japanese disaster is concerned. The United States seems to have been selected by a divine providence as the beneficiary of the Almighty in reducing Japan through the recent disaster to a state where she may, be considered as impotent to take up arms against the United States for at least ten years, it is estimated. It had been reported by military experts of the United States the Japan, prior to the earthquake, was preparing for a break with the United States and it was thought that they would strike during the years 1924 to 1927. With the rebuilding program ahead of Japan, thrift and saving, among both the government and people, alone will make it possible for Japan to revive." The tone probably doesn't sit comfortably in modern ears, but remember this was written by an American over 90 years ago.
- enkid 4y ago
  No, your missing my point. I'm not saying nationalism didn't cause the war, I'm saying it seems more externally driven than internally. Japan going to war was about becoming a major power and putting it in a position where it couldn't be colonized by external powers vice maintaining power by creating a common adversary. The incident in Manchuria surely wouldn't have been possible without those circumstances, but it also wasn't engineered to strengthen the Japanese ruling elite.
- ashwagary 4y ago
  Unpopular fact, western countries including the US,UK fully supported Japanese imperialism and expansion until shortly before Pearl Harbor.

by enkid 4y ago

option 4y ago

current russia is a great example of this

enkid 4y ago
Putin had no need to invade Ukraine to maintain his power.

LarryMullins 4y ago

> Japan went to war in China in the 1930s not because of a ruling clique that wanted to maintain power, but because of the rogue actions of military officers. This is myopic. Yes, the Manchurian Incident was kicked off the invasion of Manchuria and then the Second Sino-Japanese War was a rogue act by a few officers. But that was just the spark that started a bonfire; who piled all the wood up? Who was responsible for the decades of military buildup that preceded it? Were the acquisition of all those battleships and carriers a series of rogue acts as well? Before WW2, the Japanese government spent decades trying to maneuver Japan into being an imperialist world power that could rival America or the UK. The 'ruling clique' of Japan didn't strike the first spark, but they did labor to engineer the circumstance in which such a spark would inevitably find ample fuel to burn.

Fatnino 4y ago
After World War 1, Japan grabbed parts of Siberia, Manchuria and hundreds of formerly German held islands. There was a huge earthquake and subsequent fire that destroyed Tokyo on September 1st, 1923. Here I quote a 1928 atlas from its article about Japan, after it mentions the then recent earthquake: "The old saying which everyone is familiar with: "It's an ill wind which blows no one good," seems to be the case so far as the Japanese disaster is concerned. The United States seems to have been selected by a divine providence as the beneficiary of the Almighty in reducing Japan through the recent disaster to a state where she may, be considered as impotent to take up arms against the United States for at least ten years, it is estimated. It had been reported by military experts of the United States the Japan, prior to the earthquake, was preparing for a break with the United States and it was thought that they would strike during the years 1924 to 1927. With the rebuilding program ahead of Japan, thrift and saving, among both the government and people, alone will make it possible for Japan to revive." The tone probably doesn't sit comfortably in modern ears, but remember this was written by an American over 90 years ago.
enkid 4y ago
No, your missing my point. I'm not saying nationalism didn't cause the war, I'm saying it seems more externally driven than internally. Japan going to war was about becoming a major power and putting it in a position where it couldn't be colonized by external powers vice maintaining power by creating a common adversary. The incident in Manchuria surely wouldn't have been possible without those circumstances, but it also wasn't engineered to strengthen the Japanese ruling elite.
ashwagary 4y ago
Unpopular fact, western countries including the US,UK fully supported Japanese imperialism and expansion until shortly before Pearl Harbor.