5 ms·

Before all the nitpicking starts I want to point out this part, which I found most interesting: > Everybody knows about the hedonic treadmill: once you’re mode

by Sakos 4y ago

Before all the nitpicking starts I want to point out this part, which I found most interesting: > Everybody knows about the hedonic treadmill: once you’re moderately happy, it’s hard to get happier. But nobody has ever really explained why this happens. People say things like, “oh, you get used to good things,” but that’s just a description, not an explanation. Why do people get used to good things? > Now we might have an answer: people get used to good things because they’re always imagining how things could be better. So even if things get better, you might not feel better. When you live in a cramped apartment, you dream of getting a house. When you get a house, you dream of a second house. Or you dream of lower property taxes. Or a hot tub. Or two hot tubs. And so on, forever.

IIAOPSW 4y ago
Because there's an evolutionary advantage to thinking you could be happy, not for actually being happy.
- bardworx 4y ago
  Can you expand on why you think that? (Btw, I agree with you but want to check my priors)
  - IIAOPSW 4y ago
    I'll let the depression turtle elaborate on my behalf. Now You Happy Always Maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkq7btSQvs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkq7btSQvs
    - bardworx 4y ago
      If that video is accurate does that imply tool use in other mammals is because they weren’t happy? For example: ravens use sticks, does that imply that they will evolve with unhappiness? Then how come other animals like orcas and dolphins that show signs of a mood didn’t keep evolving their general intelligence? Kinda hand wavy video but maybe that’s the idea? Not sure.
      - IIAOPSW 4y ago
        Are ravens ever happy with what they have? I legit don't know. What I do know is that the innovation of a permanently unsatisfied brain is an incredibly recent fork. So close we don't even separate it from modern humans. So close that you could reasonably argue if its actually biological evolution or if its the principle of natural selection applied on a sociological level instead. The industrial revolution and the great windfall of wealth that came with it didn't make people happier (to the extent we can measure it). But there is one group that does seem to find happiness: the small pockets of civilization which took a different road, never bothering to switch from hunter-gatherer to farming.
        bardworx 4y ago
        First, thank you for actually discussing this because I’m interested in this topic and appreciate your point of view. I do not know if any animal is “happy” but this[0] is the paper (and there are quite a few that are similar in nature) that have empirical evidence that “happy chemicals” aren’t only there for happiness. Another point is that the “happiest” and longest living pockets of civilization are actually farmers[1]. Costa Rica and CA should be discounted as there is a 20 year average age discrepancy between Japan/Italy/Greece(90s) and CA/Costa Rica (70s). In my opinion, I would say that happiness is evolutionary and it is driven by desire to get better/explore, etc. This fits your thesis but I fork at the notion that it’s a driver. My hunch is that happiness is kinda like candy or weekends — intended in small doses as reward for survival. Since “happy chemicals” are responsible for such a large swath of human bodily functions[2], a high release can have detrimental effects (dopamine is responsible for movement and memory, for example, in addition to motivation). Basically, I agree with the video that we’re not suppose to be always happy and our search is actually a by product of understanding “happiness”. Kinda how pigs will purposefully knock apples to the ground and eat them a week or two later to get drunk[3]. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720267/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720267/ [1]: https://time.com/5160475/blue-zones-healthy-long-lives/?amp=true https://time.com/5160475/blue-zones-healthy-long-lives/?amp=... [2]: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22581-dopamine https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22581-dopamin... [3]: https://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/drunk-pigs/ https://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/drunk-pigs/
kodah 4y ago
Anecdotally, my brain is pretty wired for making plans. When I didn't have a house and security my plan was that. Every move I made was connected to those plans in some way. When I got a house, I spent a bunch of money and it was during a recession, so my two adjacent plans then became derivative. I already have plans for when I'm secure, but they're mostly around optimizing for cost, efficiency, and reliability. I used to not have a lot of money, and for a time, was stuck in the poor cycle. Plan making let me escape that thinking/action cycle. Now, I don't think I'd be less happy without optimizations to my house unless they violated some ideal I had like living frugally. I was definitely unhappy watching my chances to get a house slip away but I turned that into some happiness by realizing that every time I walked away from a deal I had a little more money, which increased my odds of not only getting a house, but getting the exact one I wanted. By the time I bought a house I basically dictated the terms because I had cash in a recession.
danaris 4y ago
> Before all the nitpicking starts... ...because we can all imagine how the article could be better!
- Sakos 4y ago
  Touché
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
I mean, we have a physiological answer to the question, dopaminergic circuits control desire and goals, putting us on the treadmill, whereas serotonin circuits avoid that and bring contentment.

by Sakos 4y ago

IIAOPSW 4y ago

Because there's an evolutionary advantage to thinking you could be happy, not for actually being happy.

bardworx 4y ago
Can you expand on why you think that? (Btw, I agree with you but want to check my priors)
- IIAOPSW 4y ago
  I'll let the depression turtle elaborate on my behalf. Now You Happy Always Maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkq7btSQvs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWkq7btSQvs
  - bardworx 4y ago
    If that video is accurate does that imply tool use in other mammals is because they weren’t happy? For example: ravens use sticks, does that imply that they will evolve with unhappiness? Then how come other animals like orcas and dolphins that show signs of a mood didn’t keep evolving their general intelligence? Kinda hand wavy video but maybe that’s the idea? Not sure.
    - IIAOPSW 4y ago
      Are ravens ever happy with what they have? I legit don't know. What I do know is that the innovation of a permanently unsatisfied brain is an incredibly recent fork. So close we don't even separate it from modern humans. So close that you could reasonably argue if its actually biological evolution or if its the principle of natural selection applied on a sociological level instead. The industrial revolution and the great windfall of wealth that came with it didn't make people happier (to the extent we can measure it). But there is one group that does seem to find happiness: the small pockets of civilization which took a different road, never bothering to switch from hunter-gatherer to farming.
      - bardworx 4y ago
        First, thank you for actually discussing this because I’m interested in this topic and appreciate your point of view. I do not know if any animal is “happy” but this[0] is the paper (and there are quite a few that are similar in nature) that have empirical evidence that “happy chemicals” aren’t only there for happiness. Another point is that the “happiest” and longest living pockets of civilization are actually farmers[1]. Costa Rica and CA should be discounted as there is a 20 year average age discrepancy between Japan/Italy/Greece(90s) and CA/Costa Rica (70s). In my opinion, I would say that happiness is evolutionary and it is driven by desire to get better/explore, etc. This fits your thesis but I fork at the notion that it’s a driver. My hunch is that happiness is kinda like candy or weekends — intended in small doses as reward for survival. Since “happy chemicals” are responsible for such a large swath of human bodily functions[2], a high release can have detrimental effects (dopamine is responsible for movement and memory, for example, in addition to motivation). Basically, I agree with the video that we’re not suppose to be always happy and our search is actually a by product of understanding “happiness”. Kinda how pigs will purposefully knock apples to the ground and eat them a week or two later to get drunk[3]. [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720267/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720267/ [1]: https://time.com/5160475/blue-zones-healthy-long-lives/?amp=true https://time.com/5160475/blue-zones-healthy-long-lives/?amp=... [2]: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22581-dopamine https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22581-dopamin... [3]: https://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/drunk-pigs/ https://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/drunk-pigs/

kodah 4y ago

Anecdotally, my brain is pretty wired for making plans. When I didn't have a house and security my plan was that. Every move I made was connected to those plans in some way. When I got a house, I spent a bunch of money and it was during a recession, so my two adjacent plans then became derivative. I already have plans for when I'm secure, but they're mostly around optimizing for cost, efficiency, and reliability. I used to not have a lot of money, and for a time, was stuck in the poor cycle. Plan making let me escape that thinking/action cycle. Now, I don't think I'd be less happy without optimizations to my house unless they violated some ideal I had like living frugally. I was definitely unhappy watching my chances to get a house slip away but I turned that into some happiness by realizing that every time I walked away from a deal I had a little more money, which increased my odds of not only getting a house, but getting the exact one I wanted. By the time I bought a house I basically dictated the terms because I had cash in a recession.

danaris 4y ago

> Before all the nitpicking starts... ...because we can all imagine how the article could be better!

Sakos 4y ago
Touché

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

I mean, we have a physiological answer to the question, dopaminergic circuits control desire and goals, putting us on the treadmill, whereas serotonin circuits avoid that and bring contentment.