4 ms·

It seems like starting work before a contract is in place (save maybe very high-level exploratory work, like a table of contents) is a recipe for disaster. They

It seems like starting work before a contract is in place (save maybe very high-level exploratory work, like a table of contents) is a recipe for disaster. They don't really owe you anything until there's a signed contract in place saying you do. Now, it's possible that Apress is problematic in that they strongly encourage people to work despite there being no contract in place ("we'll figure it out", "you have our word", "legal is slow", etc), which then puts them in a better negotiating position when it is contract time because people have already done much of the work. But I wonder what would have happened if he had said, "I'll do high-level planning, but I won't write a single paragraph of actual content until we have a firm, mutually-satisfying contract in place." Maybe it would have gotten him a firm date on when he would get his advance that they would stick to, plus deadlines in the contract that were actually in the future and other good things. Or maybe they would have still said, "no, just write it, we'll figure that out later", which would not look good

awolf 15y ago
Yes, absolutely. When you are an individual dealing with another individual and you both want to move quickly, then possibly considering getting some small work done ahead of settling on a contract. But if you are an individual dealing with a larger corporation then you are really opening yourself up to this kind of thing if you begin work without a contract. It doesn't matter if there are some genuinely good people at the company pulling for you. Accounts payable doesn't care. Get a contract.
mixu 15y ago
Apress is a freaking publisher - shouldn't they be expected to be at least minimally professional? Whatever the initial agreement e.g. regarding advances was, the fact remains that Apress did not pay the author until several months after they had completed the work despite several months of inquiries, reminders and so on. Either Apress is just plain unprofessional (e.g. unwilling/extraordinarily slow) or as you said they are doing this in order to put themselves in a better negotiating position. I had a similar experience with Apress while working with them as a technical reviewer. They printed the book without asking me for my bio, so I didn't get my five lines of text credits for the work I did. It wouldn't have cost them anything to do that, but they nevertheless screwed it up. Needless to say, I figured it's way too much of a hassle to deal with them when they approached me to write an actual book, since I want to spend my time writing rather than following up to make sure my publisher does what they are supposed to do. Yes, with a contract you have better legal recourse. But I'd prefer to work with people I don't have to sue in order to get paid, esp. when the sums involved are tiny.
- asr 15y ago
  It certainly seems like apress doesn't have their act together, but the fact remains it's a bit silly to refuse to sign a contract and then expect to be paid an advance whose amount is apparently fixed in the contract! In this case, the author could have saved a lot of trouble by asking for an acceptable contract instead of just not signing anything. Again, i'm happy to accept that apress is unprofessional and a pain, but when someone sends you a contract that says 'completion by X' and that's not ok, ask for a change! If apress paid advances to authors who refused to sign contracts with them, they could get into a lot of trouble.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    Once I started asking about my advance, Apress was happy to have me sign, and then sign themselves, a contract which specified payment in the past. They then took over two months of constant hassle to actually cough up the money. Note that I didn't actually start complaining until a date was fixed etc. and they missed it, so I think your remarks about being silly are off-base.
mikeash 15y ago
I agree that it was a bad idea to start work without a contract in place, and I also agree that they don't owe me anything until one is. But note that this is a two-way street: they don't owe me anything without a contract, but neither do they have the right to use my work. Authors generally let that slide, but they are setting themselves up for a world of pain if someone objects. (I did so on the book, and suddenly they had no negotiating leverage.)

awolf 15y ago

Yes, absolutely. When you are an individual dealing with another individual and you both want to move quickly, then possibly considering getting some small work done ahead of settling on a contract. But if you are an individual dealing with a larger corporation then you are really opening yourself up to this kind of thing if you begin work without a contract. It doesn't matter if there are some genuinely good people at the company pulling for you. Accounts payable doesn't care. Get a contract.

mixu 15y ago

Apress is a freaking publisher - shouldn't they be expected to be at least minimally professional? Whatever the initial agreement e.g. regarding advances was, the fact remains that Apress did not pay the author until several months after they had completed the work despite several months of inquiries, reminders and so on. Either Apress is just plain unprofessional (e.g. unwilling/extraordinarily slow) or as you said they are doing this in order to put themselves in a better negotiating position. I had a similar experience with Apress while working with them as a technical reviewer. They printed the book without asking me for my bio, so I didn't get my five lines of text credits for the work I did. It wouldn't have cost them anything to do that, but they nevertheless screwed it up. Needless to say, I figured it's way too much of a hassle to deal with them when they approached me to write an actual book, since I want to spend my time writing rather than following up to make sure my publisher does what they are supposed to do. Yes, with a contract you have better legal recourse. But I'd prefer to work with people I don't have to sue in order to get paid, esp. when the sums involved are tiny.

asr 15y ago
It certainly seems like apress doesn't have their act together, but the fact remains it's a bit silly to refuse to sign a contract and then expect to be paid an advance whose amount is apparently fixed in the contract! In this case, the author could have saved a lot of trouble by asking for an acceptable contract instead of just not signing anything. Again, i'm happy to accept that apress is unprofessional and a pain, but when someone sends you a contract that says 'completion by X' and that's not ok, ask for a change! If apress paid advances to authors who refused to sign contracts with them, they could get into a lot of trouble.
- mikeash 15y ago
  Once I started asking about my advance, Apress was happy to have me sign, and then sign themselves, a contract which specified payment in the past. They then took over two months of constant hassle to actually cough up the money. Note that I didn't actually start complaining until a date was fixed etc. and they missed it, so I think your remarks about being silly are off-base.

mikeash 15y ago

I agree that it was a bad idea to start work without a contract in place, and I also agree that they don't owe me anything until one is. But note that this is a two-way street: they don't owe me anything without a contract, but neither do they have the right to use my work. Authors generally let that slide, but they are setting themselves up for a world of pain if someone objects. (I did so on the book, and suddenly they had no negotiating leverage.)