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Universal Basic income would solve those problems. Eventually AI and automation should perform all the mundane jobs which is a good thing but we need to provide

Universal Basic income would solve those problems. Eventually AI and automation should perform all the mundane jobs which is a good thing but we need to provide basic sustenance for everyone.

scoot 4y ago
A world where the only thing that people contribute is more people.
gabaix 4y ago
We can do much better in automation. Entrepreneurs I know are reluctant to hire because it does not scale. Yet they do hire, slowly and surely. They need these jobs, as they cannot grow without it. Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. Most of the people they value do not want the regular job that they offer. They need the people who want the regular jobs. I am sure this will change. Yet today it is the reality.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  > Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. ...of people I want to have around me... It's been my experience that "cultural fit" has been a much more important coefficient, than "talent." In my case, it's a bit of sour grapes, and I'll be the first to admit it. I have the talent and experience to pretty much singlehandedly "make" a smallish startup (I'm doing exactly that, right now, but for a nonprofit, for free), but found that my gray hair terrified prospective employers so much, that they ran screaming. There's plenty of talent out there, but it may come with things like self-assurance, confidence, and an unwillingness to put up with childish BS, or be a galley slave.
sinlar-multiple 4y ago
lmao @ UBI I can't understand how educated people can still gobble ubi propaganda up when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially
- Karsteski 4y ago
  How has it been proven?
- sofixa 4y ago
  > when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially How exactly has it been proven? That's a very strong word to use for something that has never been tried on anything but very small scale limited pilots.
  - rvba 4y ago
    It hasnt been proven but those who live in Europe see families that get: -free housing -free money -money for children (that they use for themselves) -various other help (clothes, coal, christmas packages) This had an unfortunate effect of creating a group of people who never worked and all they did was raise 3-5 children. Despite the parents not working (so having time to take care of their children) those children did not really get any education, often did not even finish high school. And guess what those children often got their own set of children early - who also will never work, live of social benefits and small time theft. You dont exactly have to be a right winger to notice that the model is not sustainable. Especially as this group of people only demands more and they think that they "deserve" it. Also if you would try to teach the children that everyone should contribute to society by working, their parents/grandparents/even grand grandparents will protest. Since they lived this "parasite" lives forever and dont know better. How can someone demand that they work? They deserve higher social benefits and they deserve better housing. (While you are supposed to get a mortgage and slave to get a house). Also at some point the group will become so big that they can vote for politicians that will give them more (at the expense of those who work). Of course perhaps maybe UBI can work and it will be all rosy, but it is just wishful thinking. Communism was also supposed to work. Different problem with UBI is that middle class becomes nobodies - you are supposed to shut up because you get your dole. While I bet the rich people will still be rich.
    - defrost 4y ago
      Interesting opinion, nothing that meshes with the actual largely indeterminate results of the Finish experiment [1] [2] [3] nor with the bulk of the other small scale examples [4]. Countries such as Australia with robust (compared to the US) welfare safety nets (not perfect by any means, but not to shabby overall) have proven to have strong long term GDP growth and to be resilient in the face of various global crisis events. Good safety nets provide a place to regroup and do better - without being reduced to homeless and struggling to meet basic food and clothing needs. [1] https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/161361 https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/161361 [2] https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... [3] https://www.bruegel.org/blog-post/universal-basic-income-and-finnish-experiment https://www.bruegel.org/blog-post/universal-basic-income-and... [4] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/univer...
eastbound 4y ago
France has UBI in the form of “RSA” since 1981. It is proportional to the number of children, so you can live with children on it, and use the state-provided accomodations. For now it rather seems that it has created two sorts of populations: Those who live off it, and those who work, the two forever opposing each other, the latter literally enslaved by the masses of the former. The enslavement in a society which is ever-more reliant on the remaining workers meets another phenomenon: Shunning the workers who protest, because looks at all this poverty, why would you not accept to fund them.
- alexeichemenda 4y ago
  France’s RSA does not meet UBI standards that we’re considering in the US / California because the amount paid is so small. If you live alone with 2 kids, RSA would be 899€/month in 2022, far below minimum wage.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    RSA is not only the monthly amount paid, the recipients also live in social housings paying next to nothing in rent, heating, healthcare and transportation. A similar thing exists in other country like UK or Germany
    - eastbound 4y ago
      And cost of living in France is very low. People are happy with 1800€, as long as they have the rebates for theater and transports.
      - jefftk 4y ago
        Do you mean housing and transportation, or is there really something specific to theater?
        eastbound 4y ago
        A lot of things are cheaper when you have the RSA, but granted, it’s mostly leisure and optional things (museums, cinema, holidays at ucpa.com, etc). (ucpa.com is an excellent sports camp address for 18-40, by the way).
refurb 4y ago
How basic? We could have 75% of the population stop working now and the taxes on 25% could provide basic sustenance for everyone.. at 1910 levels. Same thing would happen with automation, some people would keep working, get 2-3x the wealth and everything that comes with and we’re in the same spot we’re in today.
nicksiscoe 4y ago
I understand the justification for UBI from a labor perspective if all “mundane jobs” are automated, but where I haven’t heard convincing justification is on the more abstract “life purpose” side of things. What happens, regardless of UBI, if we move towards a system that provides little to no purpose in working towards anything, or at a basic level, working for a living at all? I know many friends and relatives who reached retirement and faced anxiety and depression due to lack of “a reason to get up in the morning” - it feels like UBI would introduce this problem at a larger scale, and I’m not convinced by the general “we’ll all just be artists” concept either…
- chownie 4y ago
  We don't have a fix for this problem now, we barely paper these social cracks by requiring people to work extended hours in jobs they don't value at all. Most people don't even have the time to think about how unfulfilled they are.
- serverholic 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s a true problem though, but a symptom of being raised in capitalism.
noisy_boy 4y ago
My opinion is that UBI would actually free people up to do the low-paying mundane job that they can't afford to do today. It would provide the option of a normal work life that allows one to feel like they were productive, even if it is mundane work, and provide the human interaction by means of socializing at work. If I don't have to work, I will probably enjoy my work more.

Universal Basic income would solve those problems. Eventually AI and automation should perform all the mundane jobs which is a good thing but we need to provide basic sustenance for everyone.

scoot 4y ago

A world where the only thing that people contribute is more people.

gabaix 4y ago

We can do much better in automation. Entrepreneurs I know are reluctant to hire because it does not scale. Yet they do hire, slowly and surely. They need these jobs, as they cannot grow without it. Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. Most of the people they value do not want the regular job that they offer. They need the people who want the regular jobs. I am sure this will change. Yet today it is the reality.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. ...of people I want to have around me... It's been my experience that "cultural fit" has been a much more important coefficient, than "talent." In my case, it's a bit of sour grapes, and I'll be the first to admit it. I have the talent and experience to pretty much singlehandedly "make" a smallish startup (I'm doing exactly that, right now, but for a nonprofit, for free), but found that my gray hair terrified prospective employers so much, that they ran screaming. There's plenty of talent out there, but it may come with things like self-assurance, confidence, and an unwillingness to put up with childish BS, or be a galley slave.

sinlar-multiple 4y ago

lmao @ UBI I can't understand how educated people can still gobble ubi propaganda up when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially

Karsteski 4y ago
How has it been proven?
sofixa 4y ago
> when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially How exactly has it been proven? That's a very strong word to use for something that has never been tried on anything but very small scale limited pilots.
- rvba 4y ago
  It hasnt been proven but those who live in Europe see families that get: -free housing -free money -money for children (that they use for themselves) -various other help (clothes, coal, christmas packages) This had an unfortunate effect of creating a group of people who never worked and all they did was raise 3-5 children. Despite the parents not working (so having time to take care of their children) those children did not really get any education, often did not even finish high school. And guess what those children often got their own set of children early - who also will never work, live of social benefits and small time theft. You dont exactly have to be a right winger to notice that the model is not sustainable. Especially as this group of people only demands more and they think that they "deserve" it. Also if you would try to teach the children that everyone should contribute to society by working, their parents/grandparents/even grand grandparents will protest. Since they lived this "parasite" lives forever and dont know better. How can someone demand that they work? They deserve higher social benefits and they deserve better housing. (While you are supposed to get a mortgage and slave to get a house). Also at some point the group will become so big that they can vote for politicians that will give them more (at the expense of those who work). Of course perhaps maybe UBI can work and it will be all rosy, but it is just wishful thinking. Communism was also supposed to work. Different problem with UBI is that middle class becomes nobodies - you are supposed to shut up because you get your dole. While I bet the rich people will still be rich.
  - defrost 4y ago
    Interesting opinion, nothing that meshes with the actual largely indeterminate results of the Finish experiment [1] [2] [3] nor with the bulk of the other small scale examples [4]. Countries such as Australia with robust (compared to the US) welfare safety nets (not perfect by any means, but not to shabby overall) have proven to have strong long term GDP growth and to be resilient in the face of various global crisis events. Good safety nets provide a place to regroup and do better - without being reduced to homeless and struggling to meet basic food and clothing needs. [1] https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/161361 https://julkaisut.valtioneuvosto.fi/handle/10024/161361 [2] https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector/our-insights/an-experiment-to-inform-universal-basic-income https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/public-and-social-sector... [3] https://www.bruegel.org/blog-post/universal-basic-income-and-finnish-experiment https://www.bruegel.org/blog-post/universal-basic-income-and... [4] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/univer...

eastbound 4y ago

France has UBI in the form of “RSA” since 1981. It is proportional to the number of children, so you can live with children on it, and use the state-provided accomodations. For now it rather seems that it has created two sorts of populations: Those who live off it, and those who work, the two forever opposing each other, the latter literally enslaved by the masses of the former. The enslavement in a society which is ever-more reliant on the remaining workers meets another phenomenon: Shunning the workers who protest, because looks at all this poverty, why would you not accept to fund them.

alexeichemenda 4y ago
France’s RSA does not meet UBI standards that we’re considering in the US / California because the amount paid is so small. If you live alone with 2 kids, RSA would be 899€/month in 2022, far below minimum wage.
- Glawen 4y ago
  RSA is not only the monthly amount paid, the recipients also live in social housings paying next to nothing in rent, heating, healthcare and transportation. A similar thing exists in other country like UK or Germany
  - eastbound 4y ago
    And cost of living in France is very low. People are happy with 1800€, as long as they have the rebates for theater and transports.
    - jefftk 4y ago
      Do you mean housing and transportation, or is there really something specific to theater?
      - eastbound 4y ago
        A lot of things are cheaper when you have the RSA, but granted, it’s mostly leisure and optional things (museums, cinema, holidays at ucpa.com, etc). (ucpa.com is an excellent sports camp address for 18-40, by the way).

refurb 4y ago

How basic? We could have 75% of the population stop working now and the taxes on 25% could provide basic sustenance for everyone.. at 1910 levels. Same thing would happen with automation, some people would keep working, get 2-3x the wealth and everything that comes with and we’re in the same spot we’re in today.

nicksiscoe 4y ago

I understand the justification for UBI from a labor perspective if all “mundane jobs” are automated, but where I haven’t heard convincing justification is on the more abstract “life purpose” side of things. What happens, regardless of UBI, if we move towards a system that provides little to no purpose in working towards anything, or at a basic level, working for a living at all? I know many friends and relatives who reached retirement and faced anxiety and depression due to lack of “a reason to get up in the morning” - it feels like UBI would introduce this problem at a larger scale, and I’m not convinced by the general “we’ll all just be artists” concept either…

chownie 4y ago
We don't have a fix for this problem now, we barely paper these social cracks by requiring people to work extended hours in jobs they don't value at all. Most people don't even have the time to think about how unfulfilled they are.
serverholic 4y ago
I don’t think it’s a true problem though, but a symptom of being raised in capitalism.

noisy_boy 4y ago

My opinion is that UBI would actually free people up to do the low-paying mundane job that they can't afford to do today. It would provide the option of a normal work life that allows one to feel like they were productive, even if it is mundane work, and provide the human interaction by means of socializing at work. If I don't have to work, I will probably enjoy my work more.