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If everyone behaved like that, our society wouldn't have the wealth needed to make anyone's lives comfortable and secure, except for the lives of the rich. A j

If everyone behaved like that, our society wouldn't have the wealth needed to make anyone's lives comfortable and secure, except for the lives of the rich. A job that provides an income to a worker, and generates wealth for society, is not bullshit -- even if all it involves is making crappy consumer products, or working on an assembly line, or doing paperwork all day. In fact, such jobs are the reason the majority of people no longer live in 19th-century conditions -- and the lack of such jobs in regions that used to have a lot of them is a primary driver of populist politics.

yarrowy 4y ago
Universal Basic income would solve those problems. Eventually AI and automation should perform all the mundane jobs which is a good thing but we need to provide basic sustenance for everyone.
- scoot 4y ago
  A world where the only thing that people contribute is more people.
- gabaix 4y ago
  We can do much better in automation. Entrepreneurs I know are reluctant to hire because it does not scale. Yet they do hire, slowly and surely. They need these jobs, as they cannot grow without it. Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. Most of the people they value do not want the regular job that they offer. They need the people who want the regular jobs. I am sure this will change. Yet today it is the reality.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    > Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. ...of people I want to have around me... It's been my experience that "cultural fit" has been a much more important coefficient, than "talent." In my case, it's a bit of sour grapes, and I'll be the first to admit it. I have the talent and experience to pretty much singlehandedly "make" a smallish startup (I'm doing exactly that, right now, but for a nonprofit, for free), but found that my gray hair terrified prospective employers so much, that they ran screaming. There's plenty of talent out there, but it may come with things like self-assurance, confidence, and an unwillingness to put up with childish BS, or be a galley slave.
- sinlar-multiple 4y ago
  lmao @ UBI I can't understand how educated people can still gobble ubi propaganda up when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially
  - Karsteski 4y ago
    How has it been proven?
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially How exactly has it been proven? That's a very strong word to use for something that has never been tried on anything but very small scale limited pilots.
    - rvba 4y ago
      It hasnt been proven but those who live in Europe see families that get: -free housing -free money -money for children (that they use for themselves) -various other help (clothes, coal, christmas packages) This had an unfortunate effect of creating a group of people who never worked and all they did was raise 3-5 children. Despite the parents not working (so having time to take care of their children) those children did not really get any education, often did not even finish high school. And guess what those children often got their own set of children early - who also will never work, live of social benefits and small time theft. You dont exactly have to be a right winger to notice that the model is not sustainable. Especially as this group of people only demands more and they think that they "deserve" it. Also if you would try to teach the children that everyone should contribute to society by working, their parents/grandparents/even grand grandparents will protest. Since they lived this "parasite" lives forever and dont know better. How can someone demand that they work? They deserve higher social benefits and they deserve better housing. (While you are supposed to get a mortgage and slave to get a house). Also at some point the group will become so big that they can vote for politicians that will give them more (at the expense of those who work). Of course perhaps maybe UBI can work and it will be all rosy, but it is just wishful thinking. Communism was also supposed to work. Different problem with UBI is that middle class becomes nobodies - you are supposed to shut up because you get your dole. While I bet the rich people will still be rich.
- eastbound 4y ago
  France has UBI in the form of “RSA” since 1981. It is proportional to the number of children, so you can live with children on it, and use the state-provided accomodations. For now it rather seems that it has created two sorts of populations: Those who live off it, and those who work, the two forever opposing each other, the latter literally enslaved by the masses of the former. The enslavement in a society which is ever-more reliant on the remaining workers meets another phenomenon: Shunning the workers who protest, because looks at all this poverty, why would you not accept to fund them.
  - alexeichemenda 4y ago
    France’s RSA does not meet UBI standards that we’re considering in the US / California because the amount paid is so small. If you live alone with 2 kids, RSA would be 899€/month in 2022, far below minimum wage.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      RSA is not only the monthly amount paid, the recipients also live in social housings paying next to nothing in rent, heating, healthcare and transportation. A similar thing exists in other country like UK or Germany
      - eastbound 4y ago
        And cost of living in France is very low. People are happy with 1800€, as long as they have the rebates for theater and transports.
        jefftk 4y ago
        Do you mean housing and transportation, or is there really something specific to theater?
        eastbound 4y ago
        A lot of things are cheaper when you have the RSA, but granted, it’s mostly leisure and optional things (museums, cinema, holidays at ucpa.com, etc). (ucpa.com is an excellent sports camp address for 18-40, by the way).
- refurb 4y ago
  How basic? We could have 75% of the population stop working now and the taxes on 25% could provide basic sustenance for everyone.. at 1910 levels. Same thing would happen with automation, some people would keep working, get 2-3x the wealth and everything that comes with and we’re in the same spot we’re in today.
- nicksiscoe 4y ago
  I understand the justification for UBI from a labor perspective if all “mundane jobs” are automated, but where I haven’t heard convincing justification is on the more abstract “life purpose” side of things. What happens, regardless of UBI, if we move towards a system that provides little to no purpose in working towards anything, or at a basic level, working for a living at all? I know many friends and relatives who reached retirement and faced anxiety and depression due to lack of “a reason to get up in the morning” - it feels like UBI would introduce this problem at a larger scale, and I’m not convinced by the general “we’ll all just be artists” concept either…
  - chownie 4y ago
    We don't have a fix for this problem now, we barely paper these social cracks by requiring people to work extended hours in jobs they don't value at all. Most people don't even have the time to think about how unfulfilled they are.
  - serverholic 4y ago
    I don’t think it’s a true problem though, but a symptom of being raised in capitalism.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  My opinion is that UBI would actually free people up to do the low-paying mundane job that they can't afford to do today. It would provide the option of a normal work life that allows one to feel like they were productive, even if it is mundane work, and provide the human interaction by means of socializing at work. If I don't have to work, I will probably enjoy my work more.
lwhi 4y ago
Your comment only stands if we continue with the system we have.
- nickpp 4y ago
  Do you have another system in mind? Go ahead and propose it.
  - lwhi 4y ago
    Why's that relevant?
matbatt38 4y ago
Yeah beacause the system we live in does provide wealth and security for the poor, for sure!
- twblalock 4y ago
  It provides more than they ever had in the past.
unity1001 4y ago
> If everyone behaved like that, our society wouldn't have the wealth needed to make anyone's lives comfortable and secure, except for the lives of the rich The society today already has the means to make only 1% of the population work, and still keep the comfort level for everyone as it is. We are making people waste their lives away creating imaginary wealth to bump up the stored imaginary wealth in financial institutions only to keep the existing economic system going.
- ip26 4y ago
  Source? Criteria for “The same comfort level”?
- SimonPStevens 4y ago
  I'm very sceptical about this claim. Would like to see a source. Sure, we may have enough "money" to redistribute it. But if 99% of the population stops working, who is going to make everything we use, produce food, run power stations, and transport everything to us. Automation is great, but it doesn't cover anywhere near 99% of necessary jobs yet.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

yarrowy 4y ago

Universal Basic income would solve those problems. Eventually AI and automation should perform all the mundane jobs which is a good thing but we need to provide basic sustenance for everyone.

scoot 4y ago
A world where the only thing that people contribute is more people.
gabaix 4y ago
We can do much better in automation. Entrepreneurs I know are reluctant to hire because it does not scale. Yet they do hire, slowly and surely. They need these jobs, as they cannot grow without it. Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. Most of the people they value do not want the regular job that they offer. They need the people who want the regular jobs. I am sure this will change. Yet today it is the reality.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  > Similarly they complain about the lack of talent. ...of people I want to have around me... It's been my experience that "cultural fit" has been a much more important coefficient, than "talent." In my case, it's a bit of sour grapes, and I'll be the first to admit it. I have the talent and experience to pretty much singlehandedly "make" a smallish startup (I'm doing exactly that, right now, but for a nonprofit, for free), but found that my gray hair terrified prospective employers so much, that they ran screaming. There's plenty of talent out there, but it may come with things like self-assurance, confidence, and an unwillingness to put up with childish BS, or be a galley slave.
sinlar-multiple 4y ago
lmao @ UBI I can't understand how educated people can still gobble ubi propaganda up when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially
- Karsteski 4y ago
  How has it been proven?
- sofixa 4y ago
  > when it's proven that such model is completely unsustainable economically and socially How exactly has it been proven? That's a very strong word to use for something that has never been tried on anything but very small scale limited pilots.
  - rvba 4y ago
    It hasnt been proven but those who live in Europe see families that get: -free housing -free money -money for children (that they use for themselves) -various other help (clothes, coal, christmas packages) This had an unfortunate effect of creating a group of people who never worked and all they did was raise 3-5 children. Despite the parents not working (so having time to take care of their children) those children did not really get any education, often did not even finish high school. And guess what those children often got their own set of children early - who also will never work, live of social benefits and small time theft. You dont exactly have to be a right winger to notice that the model is not sustainable. Especially as this group of people only demands more and they think that they "deserve" it. Also if you would try to teach the children that everyone should contribute to society by working, their parents/grandparents/even grand grandparents will protest. Since they lived this "parasite" lives forever and dont know better. How can someone demand that they work? They deserve higher social benefits and they deserve better housing. (While you are supposed to get a mortgage and slave to get a house). Also at some point the group will become so big that they can vote for politicians that will give them more (at the expense of those who work). Of course perhaps maybe UBI can work and it will be all rosy, but it is just wishful thinking. Communism was also supposed to work. Different problem with UBI is that middle class becomes nobodies - you are supposed to shut up because you get your dole. While I bet the rich people will still be rich.
eastbound 4y ago
France has UBI in the form of “RSA” since 1981. It is proportional to the number of children, so you can live with children on it, and use the state-provided accomodations. For now it rather seems that it has created two sorts of populations: Those who live off it, and those who work, the two forever opposing each other, the latter literally enslaved by the masses of the former. The enslavement in a society which is ever-more reliant on the remaining workers meets another phenomenon: Shunning the workers who protest, because looks at all this poverty, why would you not accept to fund them.
- alexeichemenda 4y ago
  France’s RSA does not meet UBI standards that we’re considering in the US / California because the amount paid is so small. If you live alone with 2 kids, RSA would be 899€/month in 2022, far below minimum wage.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    RSA is not only the monthly amount paid, the recipients also live in social housings paying next to nothing in rent, heating, healthcare and transportation. A similar thing exists in other country like UK or Germany
    - eastbound 4y ago
      And cost of living in France is very low. People are happy with 1800€, as long as they have the rebates for theater and transports.
      - jefftk 4y ago
        Do you mean housing and transportation, or is there really something specific to theater?
        eastbound 4y ago
        A lot of things are cheaper when you have the RSA, but granted, it’s mostly leisure and optional things (museums, cinema, holidays at ucpa.com, etc). (ucpa.com is an excellent sports camp address for 18-40, by the way).
refurb 4y ago
How basic? We could have 75% of the population stop working now and the taxes on 25% could provide basic sustenance for everyone.. at 1910 levels. Same thing would happen with automation, some people would keep working, get 2-3x the wealth and everything that comes with and we’re in the same spot we’re in today.
nicksiscoe 4y ago
I understand the justification for UBI from a labor perspective if all “mundane jobs” are automated, but where I haven’t heard convincing justification is on the more abstract “life purpose” side of things. What happens, regardless of UBI, if we move towards a system that provides little to no purpose in working towards anything, or at a basic level, working for a living at all? I know many friends and relatives who reached retirement and faced anxiety and depression due to lack of “a reason to get up in the morning” - it feels like UBI would introduce this problem at a larger scale, and I’m not convinced by the general “we’ll all just be artists” concept either…
- chownie 4y ago
  We don't have a fix for this problem now, we barely paper these social cracks by requiring people to work extended hours in jobs they don't value at all. Most people don't even have the time to think about how unfulfilled they are.
- serverholic 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s a true problem though, but a symptom of being raised in capitalism.
noisy_boy 4y ago
My opinion is that UBI would actually free people up to do the low-paying mundane job that they can't afford to do today. It would provide the option of a normal work life that allows one to feel like they were productive, even if it is mundane work, and provide the human interaction by means of socializing at work. If I don't have to work, I will probably enjoy my work more.

lwhi 4y ago

Your comment only stands if we continue with the system we have.

nickpp 4y ago
Do you have another system in mind? Go ahead and propose it.
- lwhi 4y ago
  Why's that relevant?

matbatt38 4y ago

Yeah beacause the system we live in does provide wealth and security for the poor, for sure!

twblalock 4y ago
It provides more than they ever had in the past.

unity1001 4y ago

> If everyone behaved like that, our society wouldn't have the wealth needed to make anyone's lives comfortable and secure, except for the lives of the rich The society today already has the means to make only 1% of the population work, and still keep the comfort level for everyone as it is. We are making people waste their lives away creating imaginary wealth to bump up the stored imaginary wealth in financial institutions only to keep the existing economic system going.

ip26 4y ago
Source? Criteria for “The same comfort level”?
SimonPStevens 4y ago
I'm very sceptical about this claim. Would like to see a source. Sure, we may have enough "money" to redistribute it. But if 99% of the population stops working, who is going to make everything we use, produce food, run power stations, and transport everything to us. Automation is great, but it doesn't cover anywhere near 99% of necessary jobs yet.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]