6 ms·

The whole sports industry is a waste of labor and capital. And the athletes are the crux of the issue here. The stadiums, the sponsors, the billionaires, ect. a

The whole sports industry is a waste of labor and capital. And the athletes are the crux of the issue here. The stadiums, the sponsors, the billionaires, ect. are built around these athletes. Does it even matter if the athletes are "underpaid?"

bumby 4y ago
What makes them a waste of capital? And would you extend this same sentiment to other “non-productive” pursuits like art or writing?
- mc32 4y ago
  There is writing of textbooks and there is writing of pulp. One adds to the patrimony of a society, the other much less so…
  - throw0101c 4y ago
    > There is writing of textbooks and there is writing of pulp. One adds to the patrimony of a society, the other much less so… So entertainment has no value to society?
  - bumby 4y ago
    This feels like an overly utilitarian outlook. Some would say STEM fields help build a better world, but art and “pulp” actually make that world worth living in.
- bryceacc 4y ago
  is tax money taken for art or writing? i could understand preservation of history or something but i don't think that compares at all to a stadium or sportsball stuff
  - bumby 4y ago
    Yes, all kinds of tax money funds the arts. The easiest to point to is the federal National Endowment for the Arts, but there are other funding mechanisms at nearly every level of govt
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  First let me clarify that something can be a waste of resources even if it creates some value. For examlple if I can create 1 value from 1 dollar or 100 value from 1 dollar the 1:1 ROI is a waste of capital in terms of value. With that in mind if we compare the value of the return from sports, which includes the labor and capital costs of the stadiums, as well as the profit consumed by the owners and athletes from ticket slales after the upfront cost is payed, to housing or education, we find that the value is very low. Additionaly, in the US, there are multiple sports (basketball, baseball and football) and multiple sports teams (some states even have more than one for each sport). Compare that with other countires that just have one sport (soccer/footbal) and one team. At the very least, the sports industry in the US is a waste of capital compared to soccer, which would fill the same demand for watching sports at a much lower cost. But those two points aside I think the demand for watching other people play sports is flawed to begin with. And I think your example given with writing is perfect to lillustrate why. Written works each have a different value to them. A different lesson to them or different story. Writing a book that has already been writen has no value as a book. For example writing a chemistry textbook that is worse than an existing one (at the same price) has no value, unless there is value in reading both. But the value of sports is to fulfil some primal urge (the "point" of which, by the way, is to play sports yourself). Any way the urge is fulfiled has the same value. There is no "type" of sports when we consider the underlying demand that generates it as an industry. It also creates a second order demand of "follwing" the teams, which is the only reason the games can't just be replayed from 20 years ago. Which, by the way, compare that to writings from hundreds of years ago that are still read today. There is no need for the best players to play to fulill the underlying demand of sports. It is just the result of competition. In fact there is no need for televised sports at all compared to watching others at a local park or playing yourself. The same definetly cannot be said about writing: especially technical works but also fiction given that the work provides something more than just entertainment once you finish reading it. Although if you don't accept that fiction can ever do that then it's value is greatly dimminished. With respect to art I'm not sure what to say. I would say we already have enough art such that one already cannot consume all of it. The value of art is also controversial. It would depend on how you view that to say whether or not to extend this same sentiment to it. But many of the issues with sports can be seen in fashion, for example. So yes it does extend to other industries, although I think it is perhaps most clear in sports.
- TomSwirly 4y ago
  I don't get billion dollar tax subsidies for my writing or art, and yet you can read or see it for free.
usednet 4y ago
Out of all the things you can be critical of in sports, why the athletes? The demand for the sport results in athletes no matter what. I don't think HN commenters understand the extraordinary difficulty of becoming a professional athlete. Ignoring the genetic requirements, the amount of work and drive needed is unbelievable, and 99.9% will fail. Athletes are actually underpaid in the US, if you look at the wage to revenue ratios of most professional leagues. Even if the athletes themselves were the problem, there is no viable solution here. Banning sports?
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  There may be no solution to the sports industry existing, but that doesn't prevent it from being a waste of capital and labor. But in it's current form, it can at least be improved by switching to soccer. See my other comment to your sibling for more detail. >Athletes are actually underpaid in the US, if you look at the wage to revenue ratios of most professional leagues. You need to compare the wage to profit ratio which I'll assume you meant. And while I don't say you're wrong I'd like to see the numbers. Also I guarantee the thousands of faceless workers built around these athletes are more underpayed than the athletes, although whether that's relevant depends on exactly what point you're making. In any case, while the work and drive needed to become an athelete is very high, the amount needed to fulfill the demand is very low. Again, see my other comment. So the effort put in is just to be the one to extract the resources from ticket buyers. And the more effort put in, or more accurately the more exclusive the talent pool becomes, the higher the total cost becomes, although perhaps that amount is negligible, and that depends on the numbers which I don't have and which are either way unnecessary for my central claim.

bumby 4y ago

What makes them a waste of capital? And would you extend this same sentiment to other “non-productive” pursuits like art or writing?

mc32 4y ago
There is writing of textbooks and there is writing of pulp. One adds to the patrimony of a society, the other much less so…
- throw0101c 4y ago
  > There is writing of textbooks and there is writing of pulp. One adds to the patrimony of a society, the other much less so… So entertainment has no value to society?
- bumby 4y ago
  This feels like an overly utilitarian outlook. Some would say STEM fields help build a better world, but art and “pulp” actually make that world worth living in.
bryceacc 4y ago
is tax money taken for art or writing? i could understand preservation of history or something but i don't think that compares at all to a stadium or sportsball stuff
- bumby 4y ago
  Yes, all kinds of tax money funds the arts. The easiest to point to is the federal National Endowment for the Arts, but there are other funding mechanisms at nearly every level of govt
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
First let me clarify that something can be a waste of resources even if it creates some value. For examlple if I can create 1 value from 1 dollar or 100 value from 1 dollar the 1:1 ROI is a waste of capital in terms of value. With that in mind if we compare the value of the return from sports, which includes the labor and capital costs of the stadiums, as well as the profit consumed by the owners and athletes from ticket slales after the upfront cost is payed, to housing or education, we find that the value is very low. Additionaly, in the US, there are multiple sports (basketball, baseball and football) and multiple sports teams (some states even have more than one for each sport). Compare that with other countires that just have one sport (soccer/footbal) and one team. At the very least, the sports industry in the US is a waste of capital compared to soccer, which would fill the same demand for watching sports at a much lower cost. But those two points aside I think the demand for watching other people play sports is flawed to begin with. And I think your example given with writing is perfect to lillustrate why. Written works each have a different value to them. A different lesson to them or different story. Writing a book that has already been writen has no value as a book. For example writing a chemistry textbook that is worse than an existing one (at the same price) has no value, unless there is value in reading both. But the value of sports is to fulfil some primal urge (the "point" of which, by the way, is to play sports yourself). Any way the urge is fulfiled has the same value. There is no "type" of sports when we consider the underlying demand that generates it as an industry. It also creates a second order demand of "follwing" the teams, which is the only reason the games can't just be replayed from 20 years ago. Which, by the way, compare that to writings from hundreds of years ago that are still read today. There is no need for the best players to play to fulill the underlying demand of sports. It is just the result of competition. In fact there is no need for televised sports at all compared to watching others at a local park or playing yourself. The same definetly cannot be said about writing: especially technical works but also fiction given that the work provides something more than just entertainment once you finish reading it. Although if you don't accept that fiction can ever do that then it's value is greatly dimminished. With respect to art I'm not sure what to say. I would say we already have enough art such that one already cannot consume all of it. The value of art is also controversial. It would depend on how you view that to say whether or not to extend this same sentiment to it. But many of the issues with sports can be seen in fashion, for example. So yes it does extend to other industries, although I think it is perhaps most clear in sports.
TomSwirly 4y ago
I don't get billion dollar tax subsidies for my writing or art, and yet you can read or see it for free.

usednet 4y ago

Out of all the things you can be critical of in sports, why the athletes? The demand for the sport results in athletes no matter what. I don't think HN commenters understand the extraordinary difficulty of becoming a professional athlete. Ignoring the genetic requirements, the amount of work and drive needed is unbelievable, and 99.9% will fail. Athletes are actually underpaid in the US, if you look at the wage to revenue ratios of most professional leagues. Even if the athletes themselves were the problem, there is no viable solution here. Banning sports?

Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
There may be no solution to the sports industry existing, but that doesn't prevent it from being a waste of capital and labor. But in it's current form, it can at least be improved by switching to soccer. See my other comment to your sibling for more detail. >Athletes are actually underpaid in the US, if you look at the wage to revenue ratios of most professional leagues. You need to compare the wage to profit ratio which I'll assume you meant. And while I don't say you're wrong I'd like to see the numbers. Also I guarantee the thousands of faceless workers built around these athletes are more underpayed than the athletes, although whether that's relevant depends on exactly what point you're making. In any case, while the work and drive needed to become an athelete is very high, the amount needed to fulfill the demand is very low. Again, see my other comment. So the effort put in is just to be the one to extract the resources from ticket buyers. And the more effort put in, or more accurately the more exclusive the talent pool becomes, the higher the total cost becomes, although perhaps that amount is negligible, and that depends on the numbers which I don't have and which are either way unnecessary for my central claim.