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A few exceptions come to mind after reading this: Large robotics organizations such as self-driving car startups. They currently operate relatively independent

A few exceptions come to mind after reading this: Large robotics organizations such as self-driving car startups. They currently operate relatively independently under large multi-national corporations. They have all the trappings of a post-PMF startup like org charts, titles, performance reviews, comp packages but have not proven their business models.

YouWhy 4y ago
I agree. Further examples are: - non trivial hardware - games I think it generalizes to a conjunction of: a delayed-value AND a need for narrowly-specialized-execution. One reservation is that I do think that as startups such organizations are more fit than corporates: to succeed, the abundance of loyalist political hacks should be lower and the abundance of execution veterans is much higher.
wbl 4y ago
Huh? The product they are trying to make is very obviously useful. It's like a new way to make electricity: I don't need to study the market much to know if I can pull it off there will be customers. Org charts and performance reviews are things basic to any big organization. Even three men and a dog need to know who walks the dog.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Analogies are never perfect but this one was extra bad. Why'd you need a org chart and/or performance reviews to know who of the three should walk the dog? Accidentally, the "organization bloat" mirrors my experience in big companies, so maybe the analogy isn't that bad after all actually.
  - doctor_eval 4y ago
    That was my first thought too. In some startups they will take turns walking the dog. In some, they will walk it together. In others, the dog will be walked by one specific person. The company will probably fail if no one walks the dog, or if it is put in charge.
    - wbl 4y ago
      And when you make duties and assign them you have an org chart
      - doctor_eval 4y ago
        Arguably, but I was just agreeing that the analogy was poor. But to your point, there is no need for an org chart if the tasks and assignments are identified and assigned collectively. Not that you’d know if from this thread, but there do exist non hierarchical systems of governance.

YouWhy 4y ago

I agree. Further examples are: - non trivial hardware - games I think it generalizes to a conjunction of: a delayed-value AND a need for narrowly-specialized-execution. One reservation is that I do think that as startups such organizations are more fit than corporates: to succeed, the abundance of loyalist political hacks should be lower and the abundance of execution veterans is much higher.

wbl 4y ago

Huh? The product they are trying to make is very obviously useful. It's like a new way to make electricity: I don't need to study the market much to know if I can pull it off there will be customers. Org charts and performance reviews are things basic to any big organization. Even three men and a dog need to know who walks the dog.

capableweb 4y ago
Analogies are never perfect but this one was extra bad. Why'd you need a org chart and/or performance reviews to know who of the three should walk the dog? Accidentally, the "organization bloat" mirrors my experience in big companies, so maybe the analogy isn't that bad after all actually.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  That was my first thought too. In some startups they will take turns walking the dog. In some, they will walk it together. In others, the dog will be walked by one specific person. The company will probably fail if no one walks the dog, or if it is put in charge.
  - wbl 4y ago
    And when you make duties and assign them you have an org chart
    - doctor_eval 4y ago
      Arguably, but I was just agreeing that the analogy was poor. But to your point, there is no need for an org chart if the tasks and assignments are identified and assigned collectively. Not that you’d know if from this thread, but there do exist non hierarchical systems of governance.