6 ms·

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)bui

• javajosh 4y ago
  100%. Someone who beats the drum on this regularly and effectively is Brent Toderian, @BrentToderian@mastodon.online. He's a city planner and strong advocate for precisely this position. Another resource is strongtowns.org. But yes, just speaking up, getting involved at the local level, is something that every citizen should get involved with if they can.
• mr_toad 4y ago
  Even if we got rid of all private passenger vehicles we’d still need some small commercial vehicles and they’d have the same technical issues.
  • acdha 4y ago
    Kind of. Any problem is easier with a much smaller number and commercial vehicles are more likely to be stored in places where they have power available.
• danny_codes 4y ago
  Hear hear. I'm traveling in Taiwan right now and it's just night and day. Outside of NY and small areas of Boston/Chicago/Phili/SF proper it's just a disaster in the US.
• yucky 4y ago
  Great plan! Tell us how..
• josephcsible 4y ago
  I like living in suburbs better than cities, so I choose to live in a suburb, but I don't try to keep other people from being able to live in cities. You like cities and not suburbs. Why can't you be content to just live in a city yourself? Why do you need to make it your mission to destroy my neighborhood?
  • acdha 4y ago
    Are they trying to destroy your neighborhood or simply stop subsidizing it? Suburban living costs more and a lot of those costs are paid by the cities they’re near but don’t contribute much to economically.
    • ducttapecrown 4y ago
      I'm an urban living fan, but do you have a source for that claim? It would be a wonderful argument to make!
      • fragmede 4y ago
        That's the basic premise made by StongTowns.org. It's hard to pick a single post to start but the one about Layfayette, Louisiana is a good case study and a good place to dive in, imo. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason-your-city-has-no-money https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/1/9/the-real-reason...
      • acdha 4y ago
        The costs? Basically it comes down to things like roads, water, sewer, etc. being amortized over fewer people: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-public-more-than-twice-as-much-as-compact-development/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/sprawl-costs-the-publ... https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/2/5/suburban-infrastructure-over-time https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/2/5/suburban-infras... Re: costs to cities, mostly focused on the extensive roadworks to serve solo car commuters - those are expensive and converted a lot of neighborhoods into something which consumes but does not generate tax income, and things like parking don’t generate much income, and all of that comes at a hefty cost to health & quality of life.
• alar44 4y ago
  That's a project that will take generations. "Rebuild all the cities". Ok.
• xyzelement 4y ago
  Counterpoint: moved to the burbs after 40 years of city life (Europe and NYC) and I absolutely love it. Cars work absolutely great and with the decreased need to be physically in the office, suburban life is better and more convenient than ever. I feel like every post that shits on the suburbs should include how many kids do you have, for transparency. No family or kids, of course the city is better for you.
  • ffssffss 4y ago
    I think you're missing the bigger problem here - climate change. We cannot drive in ICE cars forever if we want our environment to remain livable. Your car-based lifestyle might be fine for you, right now, but it's still unsustainable and contributing to a worse world for your kids and their kids. If EVs aren't going to to be a drop in solution, then we really do need to talk about reorganizing society away from cars, so that we can have a society at all in the future. The only other option is some kind of technological silver bullet for carbon capture that manages to arrive in time. Personally I'm fairly pessimistic about this problem. I don't see a political path to widespread mass transit in the US, and I don't know how you remove the incentive that developing economies have to pollute. It feels like a prisoners' dilemma.
    • xyzelement 4y ago
      I think I am less stressed about this than you are. I remember someone ranting at me in the 90s about peak oil and how our kids will live in the stone ages because we'll run out (their thesis of course was that ppl shouldn't have kids) Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster moment keeps pushing back as time progresses) is not logical. And then specifically. I work from home as does my wife. Most of my driving (in a hybrid btw) is 2 miles to drop our kid at school or go to the grocery store. Really hard to connect this lifestyle to dooming the plannet honestly.
      • ffssffss 4y ago
        Ah, if you don't think climate change is going to be an issue, then I think I see where you're coming from. I hope you're right.
• Renaud 4y ago
  I don’t understand what EVs have to do with the need for better public transports and better alternatives. Maybe I’m missing something but that was never my understanding for the need for EVs to replace ICE, a need based in lowering reliance on fossil fuel and decreasing air pollution. These are still required, whatever urban policy we end up with. I see the urgent need for improved public transports to be paramount in these goals too, so both EV to replace the billions of ICE cars and better urban transportation alternatives are needed.
  • Underphil 4y ago
    I think the poster is alluding to what appears (anecdotally) to be a mindset of "once EVs are ubiquitous we're good forever". Whereas it can also be seen as kicking the can down the road.
• swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
  I have a bold proposal for solving the streets in city crisis: Between buildings, build an elevated walkway above the roads. With ventilation these walkways could cover a large part if not all of the area above roads. Promote social spaces, commerce areas, and open areas between buildings without sacrificing cars. Just build above them.
  • alwayslikethis 4y ago
    Now, who would pay for this? Car drivers? City dwellers?
    • swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
      In wealthy parts of the city, the building owners could be made responsible for the upkeep of the walking areas adjacent to their building. The infrastructure to support it would have to be maintained or inspected by an honest third party. In not as wealthy parts of the city, I don’t think this idea makes sense. This is just an idea to reclaim walking space in our cities without making the enormous leap to banning cars/roads in cities, which we’ll still need to cart the enormous amount of products and raw materials a city needs.
      • Gigachad 4y ago
        If I’m paying for the road in front of my building, then I don’t want car access. I don’t need it. Just make it a pedestrian space with an allowance for deliveries/moving vans/etc.
• jancsika 4y ago
  That, or roll out fiber nationwide and just have everyone do their business inside Fortnite all day in their parents' basements.
• piotrkaminski 4y ago
  > public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility) In the kind of cold weather that cuts EV range, per the OP? I've been there, and thanks but no thanks -- I'm too old for that shit. I'll stick to my car even if its range is reduced. > Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. This I heartily agree with, but it can be compatible with cars if we can get self-driving finally sorted out. Just have your car drop you off, then go out of the city to wait for you (and perhaps charge itself at the same time). > Death to the suburban experiment. Suburbs have different problems than cities do, but I'm not convinced they're particularly worse or more plentiful, and there are certainly other (dare I say better?) ways to solve them than abolishing suburbs outright.
• lelanthran 4y ago
  > Americans, can we stop this failed experiment It's been pretty successful for a "failed experiment".
• twblalock 4y ago
  Fix the cities first. Fix the crime, and the pollution, and the noise. Give people a way to live without constantly hearing their neighbors through the walls. Give people transit options where they don't need to fear for their physical safety. Give people a place to raise children without worrying about them picking up used needles on the street. Give people space to be something other than interchangeable sardines in boxes in high-rise apartment buildings -- what about people who want to do woodworking, or welding, or work on cars, or hunt? City live is only one of the valid lifestyles available to humans, and arguably it is the most unnatural, the most harmful, and the least tolerable. Change that before you call for the death of the lifestyles that other people enjoy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if "death to cities" is the response you get.
  • pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    [flagged]
    • twblalock 4y ago
      If that was true, the transit situation in SF and NYC would not be as bad as it is — and the crime in NYC in particular has been increasing noticeably, despite that city being one of the wealthiest in the world. And yes, in NYC people of all social classes take the subway. You also betray your true intentions with words like “force”. You want to force an urban transit-based lifestyle on everyone. You don’t want people to have a choice. It’s like you want to prove all the suburban NIMBYS right in their suspicions that new housing is an intentional attempt to destroy suburbs…
      • pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        > And yes, in NYC people of all social classes take the subway. In several european countries they do the same happens but public transport Is great. This Is more of a US problem than anything else. > You also betray your true intentions with words like “force” I dont betray anything, im openly for it. We are forced to do things all the time, that's literally what any state does.