13 ms·

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make

by jws 4y ago

Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. Then finding out they only have gasoline, so you try to figure out how much gas you can add to the diesel tank to keep it from gelling but still run adequately to move you along. Sometimes we forget that we have 100 years of infrastructure behind our internal combustion engines and about 10 behind the electric vehicles. In the first 10 years of internal combustion engines, you bought benzene at the local apothecary and used that to fuel your car. Three years of EV in a more or less unheated garage and I'm still just charging off my 15A 120V outlet. It's fine. I plug in every other day or so. But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all.

alphabettsy 4y ago
Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs. You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.
- estebank 4y ago
  Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other? "Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation." "I need a truck for my farm." "Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible." "I don't live in a city and the bus only comes twice every day and I have to drive 30 miles to work." These are not mutually exclusive statements! EVs aren't great for long distance transportation. Particularly ill suited for long haul trucking in winter. But that's not what most people do. Most vehicles drive short distances in fair weather. Many American families have more than one car. That second car doesn't need to be able to drive cross country in the winter. I don't complain that my sneakers are not snow shoes so they are useless to me and anyone else. No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. At most there might be restrictions on usage in cities, no different to how some european cities keep private cars outside of historical city centers.
  - jhoechtl 4y ago
    > No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. Certainly in Europe. Not directly but via a back door: Must not enter the city center in a diesel car No new ICE cars after 2035
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Which doesn't make them illegal to own, just impossible to register new ones. And that's ok, especially since all major car makers are in on it. Diesel cars are an issue due to dust emissions. Most modern, read Euro 6 temp, and above, engines should be more or less fine. How the latter will be controlled and enforced so, excluding older cars from certain places, is trickey. I have to point out so, this will be a social issue. Well off people will most switch to EVs, one of the reasons I guess why VW and others are diverting marketing budgets from EVs (read Diesel) to EVs. Those that cannot afford EVs will face issues, since it either used petrol cars, with higher consumption, or used diesels, with issues going to some places due to emissions.
jiggawatts 4y ago
I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start. Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.
- lb1lf 4y ago
  I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the winterization package was an extremely heavy sump. If you perused the manual, you found out why - it suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an outback engine heater. The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing short of an anti tank mine would stop it.
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Crews did that while building the Alaska Canada highway too
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  IIRC, that was about heating the oil.
- bruce511 4y ago
  A long time ago, in a land far far away, I drop a fire engine. Big monster, 37 tons, with a giant v16 Rolls Royce diesel moter. It didn't like starting in the cold, and it didn't have battery enough to crank it for long. And failure-to-start was, um, not good. The solution was a built-in electric heater and charger. Basically it was permanently plugged in so the battery was 100%,and the engine block was "not freezing cold" (I wouldn't go as far as "warm"). Had a push button start that fired up instantly, at the cost of an extra 3 seconds unplugging it it an emergency. My point I guess is that you don't really have to heat the garage, you just need to warm the battery up a little.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  you can buy heaters that you stick into your engine where the dipstick goes for checking the oil. plug em in overnight. I'm not sure at what temperature you would also need to heat the battery; maybe the residual heat is generally enough, but the warmed engine will crank a lot easier so less strain on the battery that way.
cwalv 4y ago
> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- akmarinov 4y ago
  2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v
  - Schnitz 4y ago
    How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).
    - nickthegreek 4y ago
      I think most of us don’t even have garages.
    - zainhoda 4y ago
      My guess is that older homes in the northeast will have an issue not with adding the outlet but upgrading from 100amp to 200amp service. I was quoted $10k for that upgrade. I had to decide between getting an EV and getting a heat pump. Decided on the heat pump, which I’m very happy with — it’s saving me thousands on heating oil.
      - mec31 4y ago
        Can confirm. I have an 1898 house in the Northeast. Just upgraded from 100A service to 200A service for $3900. I didn’t own the house at the time, but I believe it went from 40A to 100A in 1985.
isityouyesitsme 4y ago
OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it. Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE infra. This is how every conversation about EV goes. Person A: "look how awesome EV is!" Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven to work how the vast majority of people need it to work." Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or "no, you are only imagining those problems!"
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Where does Person B live? In a hut in Siberia?
  - isityouyesitsme 4y ago
    C'mon, you have to purposefully be this obtuse. There's no other way it can happen. Literally any location in the northern US, especially the more rural and more dense urban, and doubly true if you make under 30k per household person and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.
    - defrost 4y ago
      > I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world. Well, FWiW the Australian (and New Zealand) standard across the entire country is 240v with (most) internal circuits rated for 10 A .. but a call to an electrician gets you a { 15 | 20 | 25 | 32 } amp circuit pulled from the household breaker box (if high amp circuits weren't added at build time) [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 In other EV news an Australian state (South Australia) had a net 104.1 per cent wind and solar over seven days (ie produced more renewable energy than total energy used and exported the excess) [2], and in my state "Renewables reach 84 pct share of world’s biggest isolated grid" [3] [2] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week-104-1-per-cent-wind-and-solar-over-seven-days/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week... [3] https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-pct-share-of-worlds-biggest-isolated-grid/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-p... So, uhh, we have the infrastructure to charge EV's in isolated rural parts of the country and have had for decades .. increased generation is an issue but we have plans to significantly increase global green hydrogen production and export excess over local demand.
jakear 4y ago
> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Sounds like it's time for you to vote for the prohibition of self-service gas stations!
pard68 4y ago
Is that something that actually happens to diesel engines? I have multiple diesels and while they are difficult to _start_ in the cold they are fine once started for me. But yes, cold enough and combustion engines are hard to get going. My Subaru hates cold days, it'll go a few seconds on a below freezing day before ignition. My diesel tractors actually have electric plugs to keep the manifold hot.
- rlkf 4y ago
  Mostly it's the start battery that have problems in the cold. The diesel sold in Norway have anti-gelling substances added; cars run fine in -20 degC/-4 degF.
  - pard68 4y ago
    I live in the southern USA. So it makes sense that I have never heard of this. We had a -6°F night the other night but usually it'll freeze at night and be back above freezing by noon.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      diesel starts gelling at warmer than water freezes.
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      It's likely that the stations around you switch to a winter mix.
- tim333 4y ago
  It is an can be a pain for non diesel drivers if large trucks grind to a halt and block the motorway. That's happened in the UK in unusual cold spells.
  - pard68 4y ago
    Yes that'd be quite a problem. Our cold lasts so little here that I've never had a need to start any of my tractors in the freezing, just wait a day and it's back to warm.
krater23 4y ago
>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving. I want to see your new electric car driving in this circumstances the 100km I had to drive. And please note, 2035 means 13 years in the future. I don't doubt that the infrastructure for electric cars can work in 100 years...but what's with 13?
- Renevith 4y ago
  Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery... I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.
  - jhoechtl 4y ago
    What if you wouldn't make it home and have a night outside? Two times 75km and down to 12% charge is not inspiring confidence in such situations!
    - Renevith 4y ago
      When I left for the second drive, the car's navigation app estimated I'd have 13% left when I arrived, and the estimates have been impressively good so I just went for it. But I also was in a good sized metro area with a couple Tesla superchargers not far off my route, so my backup plan was to stop at one for 15 minutes if it ever looked like I might not make it.
      - michpoch 4y ago
        What would have happened if there is a road closure and you need to drive extra 20kms? Or a traffic jam that would make you wait one hour?
msrenee 4y ago
And then you're replacing the fuel filters when it's below 0 F out because they got destroyed by the gelled diesel. And then you learn your lesson and keep a bottle of Power Service on hand if it's going to get cold and it's never a problem again. It's literally as easy as having the right fuel additives on hand before it gets too cold. It's not even an infrastructure problem. I will say that you left out the most fun part of a good winter driving a diesel, which is when you can't fill up even at a station with diesel on account of the fuel gelled in the pump hose. Luckily the gas station on the way home from work is a truck stop and the pumps for the tractor-trailers were still working. On a related note, it's not unusual for us to lose power here for a couple hours to a couple days at a time either in the worst of winter, or during summer storm season. What do you do with an electric car when the electricity is out in the neighborhood?
- hef19898 4y ago
  There is no winter diesel in the US?
  - msrenee 4y ago
    That's with winter blend.
Hamuko 4y ago
>But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Filling up the car is the least painful part of driving in the winter. You park up next to a fuel pump with the heated seats slow-roasting your ass (and the car is probably warm by the time you reach a station), you get out of the car for about 4 minutes, and then you go back in the car to continue the slow roast.
rad_gruchalski 4y ago
> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. You have a garage. Those who don’t have a garage freeze their asses off in howling winds every second day while plugging the car into an outdoor charger.

by jws 4y ago

alphabettsy 4y ago

Diesel passenger cars aren’t popular in the US, certainly not in the segments that compete with EVs. You’re right but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s not the right time for people in certain areas or with certain lifestyles to have an EV.

estebank 4y ago
Why is it that when it comes to transportation the discussion is always talking past each other? "Trucks don't belong in cities for personal transportation." "I need a truck for my farm." "Vehicle transportation is a huge chunk of global warming contributing fuel consumption, so we need to reduce car usage in cities towards more and better public transport, and EVs when possible." "I don't live in a city and the bus only comes twice every day and I have to drive 30 miles to work." These are not mutually exclusive statements! EVs aren't great for long distance transportation. Particularly ill suited for long haul trucking in winter. But that's not what most people do. Most vehicles drive short distances in fair weather. Many American families have more than one car. That second car doesn't need to be able to drive cross country in the winter. I don't complain that my sneakers are not snow shoes so they are useless to me and anyone else. No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. At most there might be restrictions on usage in cities, no different to how some european cities keep private cars outside of historical city centers.
- jhoechtl 4y ago
  > No one is talking about making ICE vehicles illegal. Certainly in Europe. Not directly but via a back door: Must not enter the city center in a diesel car No new ICE cars after 2035
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Which doesn't make them illegal to own, just impossible to register new ones. And that's ok, especially since all major car makers are in on it. Diesel cars are an issue due to dust emissions. Most modern, read Euro 6 temp, and above, engines should be more or less fine. How the latter will be controlled and enforced so, excluding older cars from certain places, is trickey. I have to point out so, this will be a social issue. Well off people will most switch to EVs, one of the reasons I guess why VW and others are diverting marketing budgets from EVs (read Diesel) to EVs. Those that cannot afford EVs will face issues, since it either used petrol cars, with higher consumption, or used diesels, with issues going to some places due to emissions.

jiggawatts 4y ago

I heard stories about Russians in the red army setting a pan of fuel on fire under the engine block of their trucks to warm them up sufficiently to turn over and start. Apparently some truck models over there have a built-in metal tray for this purpose.

lb1lf 4y ago
I had a Lada Niva 4WD back in the day; part of the winterization package was an extremely heavy sump. If you perused the manual, you found out why - it suggested you light a small fire under it to serve as an outback engine heater. The Niva was, uh, an interesting car to own, but was amazing whenever conditions turned to shite. Nothing short of an anti tank mine would stop it.
NegativeLatency 4y ago
Crews did that while building the Alaska Canada highway too
EdwardDiego 4y ago
IIRC, that was about heating the oil.
bruce511 4y ago
A long time ago, in a land far far away, I drop a fire engine. Big monster, 37 tons, with a giant v16 Rolls Royce diesel moter. It didn't like starting in the cold, and it didn't have battery enough to crank it for long. And failure-to-start was, um, not good. The solution was a built-in electric heater and charger. Basically it was permanently plugged in so the battery was 100%,and the engine block was "not freezing cold" (I wouldn't go as far as "warm"). Had a push button start that fired up instantly, at the cost of an extra 3 seconds unplugging it it an emergency. My point I guess is that you don't really have to heat the garage, you just need to warm the battery up a little.
fsckboy 4y ago
you can buy heaters that you stick into your engine where the dipstick goes for checking the oil. plug em in overnight. I'm not sure at what temperature you would also need to heat the battery; maybe the residual heat is generally enough, but the warmed engine will crank a lot easier so less strain on the battery that way.

cwalv 4y ago

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
akmarinov 4y ago
2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v
- Schnitz 4y ago
  How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).
  - nickthegreek 4y ago
    I think most of us don’t even have garages.
  - zainhoda 4y ago
    My guess is that older homes in the northeast will have an issue not with adding the outlet but upgrading from 100amp to 200amp service. I was quoted $10k for that upgrade. I had to decide between getting an EV and getting a heat pump. Decided on the heat pump, which I’m very happy with — it’s saving me thousands on heating oil.
    - mec31 4y ago
      Can confirm. I have an 1898 house in the Northeast. Just upgraded from 100A service to 200A service for $3900. I didn’t own the house at the time, but I believe it went from 40A to 100A in 1985.

isityouyesitsme 4y ago

OK, 10 years behind EV. It makes sense that it is where it is. Please point out anywhere where anyone says the accomplishments are not remarkable on their own, if you are not comparing them to the thing with 100 years infra behind it. Now compare that to the seemingly endless number of evangelists who think that 10 years from now is a good time to impose a mandate to kill all new ICE vehicle manufacturing, in spite of EV tech being only 80 years (or 30 years of "modern tech hard push") behind ICE infra. This is how every conversation about EV goes. Person A: "look how awesome EV is!" Person B: "yeah, but it won't work for me based on where I live and the needs I have from a car. It seems foolish to push a mandate for a technology that can't be proven to work how the vast majority of people need it to work." Person A: "you are being unfair in your comparison!" or "no, you are only imagining those problems!"

EdwardDiego 4y ago
Where does Person B live? In a hut in Siberia?
- isityouyesitsme 4y ago
  C'mon, you have to purposefully be this obtuse. There's no other way it can happen. Literally any location in the northern US, especially the more rural and more dense urban, and doubly true if you make under 30k per household person and don't already have a circuit in your garage for an electric oven or electric clothes dryer. I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > I suspect the same is true for other locations in the world. Well, FWiW the Australian (and New Zealand) standard across the entire country is 240v with (most) internal circuits rated for 10 A .. but a call to an electrician gets you a { 15 | 20 | 25 | 32 } amp circuit pulled from the household breaker box (if high amp circuits weren't added at build time) [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112 In other EV news an Australian state (South Australia) had a net 104.1 per cent wind and solar over seven days (ie produced more renewable energy than total energy used and exported the excess) [2], and in my state "Renewables reach 84 pct share of world’s biggest isolated grid" [3] [2] https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week-104-1-per-cent-wind-and-solar-over-seven-days/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australias-incredible-week... [3] https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-pct-share-of-worlds-biggest-isolated-grid/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/epic-stuff-renewables-reach-84-p... So, uhh, we have the infrastructure to charge EV's in isolated rural parts of the country and have had for decades .. increased generation is an issue but we have plans to significantly increase global green hydrogen production and export excess over local demand.

jakear 4y ago

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Sounds like it's time for you to vote for the prohibition of self-service gas stations!

pard68 4y ago

Is that something that actually happens to diesel engines? I have multiple diesels and while they are difficult to _start_ in the cold they are fine once started for me. But yes, cold enough and combustion engines are hard to get going. My Subaru hates cold days, it'll go a few seconds on a below freezing day before ignition. My diesel tractors actually have electric plugs to keep the manifold hot.

rlkf 4y ago
Mostly it's the start battery that have problems in the cold. The diesel sold in Norway have anti-gelling substances added; cars run fine in -20 degC/-4 degF.
- pard68 4y ago
  I live in the southern USA. So it makes sense that I have never heard of this. We had a -6°F night the other night but usually it'll freeze at night and be back above freezing by noon.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    diesel starts gelling at warmer than water freezes.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    It's likely that the stations around you switch to a winter mix.
tim333 4y ago
It is an can be a pain for non diesel drivers if large trucks grind to a halt and block the motorway. That's happened in the UK in unusual cold spells.
- pard68 4y ago
  Yes that'd be quite a problem. Our cold lasts so little here that I've never had a need to start any of my tractors in the freezing, just wait a day and it's back to warm.

krater23 4y ago

>Spoken by someone who's never had their diesel fuel begin gelling in the fuel line at night on a frigid, remote highway and trying to figure out if you can make it to somewhere with heat before you stop completely. I don't know where you live, but here in Germany my diesel car had no big problems with -19°C around 10 years ago. Biggest problem was heating the interior that the windows remain ice free during driving. I want to see your new electric car driving in this circumstances the 100km I had to drive. And please note, 2035 means 13 years in the future. I don't doubt that the infrastructure for electric cars can work in 100 years...but what's with 13?

Renevith 4y ago
Just yesterday I drove 75km in -22C, parked outside all day, then back home the same distance in -19C. Took my Model Y from 80% to 12%. No problem with heat either (that's part of why it used so much charge). I was a lot more worried about sliding off the road than running out of battery... I believe you that it's no problem for a diesel. But it's no problem for electric either.
- jhoechtl 4y ago
  What if you wouldn't make it home and have a night outside? Two times 75km and down to 12% charge is not inspiring confidence in such situations!
  - Renevith 4y ago
    When I left for the second drive, the car's navigation app estimated I'd have 13% left when I arrived, and the estimates have been impressively good so I just went for it. But I also was in a good sized metro area with a couple Tesla superchargers not far off my route, so my backup plan was to stop at one for 15 minutes if it ever looked like I might not make it.
    - michpoch 4y ago
      What would have happened if there is a road closure and you need to drive extra 20kms? Or a traffic jam that would make you wait one hour?

msrenee 4y ago

And then you're replacing the fuel filters when it's below 0 F out because they got destroyed by the gelled diesel. And then you learn your lesson and keep a bottle of Power Service on hand if it's going to get cold and it's never a problem again. It's literally as easy as having the right fuel additives on hand before it gets too cold. It's not even an infrastructure problem. I will say that you left out the most fun part of a good winter driving a diesel, which is when you can't fill up even at a station with diesel on account of the fuel gelled in the pump hose. Luckily the gas station on the way home from work is a truck stop and the pumps for the tractor-trailers were still working. On a related note, it's not unusual for us to lose power here for a couple hours to a couple days at a time either in the worst of winter, or during summer storm season. What do you do with an electric car when the electricity is out in the neighborhood?

hef19898 4y ago
There is no winter diesel in the US?
- msrenee 4y ago
  That's with winter blend.

Hamuko 4y ago

>But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Filling up the car is the least painful part of driving in the winter. You park up next to a fuel pump with the heated seats slow-roasting your ass (and the car is probably warm by the time you reach a station), you get out of the car for about 4 minutes, and then you go back in the car to continue the slow roast.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. You have a garage. Those who don’t have a garage freeze their asses off in howling winds every second day while plugging the car into an outdoor charger.