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I run my own email. I have my own physical servers, that I built and tested myself, that I'm colocating. They handle both incoming and outgoing, and I've been

I run my own email. I have my own physical servers, that I built and tested myself, that I'm colocating. They handle both incoming and outgoing, and I've been doing it for so long that there is no previous reputation for the IP addresses I use. In spite of how vehemently some people, Reddit's /r/sysadmin, as an example, want you to NOT host your own and use issues like deliverability as reasons, it's really not hard at all. It's super simple to refute all the major points they make, because they're so painfully weak that anyone that believes them may actually not have the aptitude to do it, and therefore shouldn't be telling others to not do it. 1) The primary issue brought up is deliverability. If you don't have a static IP, or you don't have control over your reverse DNS PTR, or the reputation of your IP is poor, then pay a company to smarthost your outgoing mail through them. It's a few $ a month, and poof! Problem solved. 2) There is no problem 2! Incoming email is incredibly straightforward. Even if you're on a residential network that blocks incoming port 25, you can pay for a VPS or something like that on a public address and port forward to your mail server. Why make a distinction between simply hosting your email with a VPS and doing this? Well, one of the primary reasons for people hosting their own email is being able to possess your own email - that is, your email isn't sitting unencrypted on a server that you don't control. I've even run an email server in my car while driving across the country, just to show how easy it is. It uses tinc to forward a public address and had no issues with email in either direction :)

the-anarchist 4y ago
You Sir are badass and should definitely share some of all that on a website/blog of yours. Would be genuinely curious to read more!
mattrighetti 4y ago
Which software are you using to push/receive emails on your own servers? > your email isn't sitting unencrypted on a server that you don't control This is valid if all the other parties that you send emails to self host their email servers as well. If you have your own self hosted mail server but you talk to gmail people then "your" emails are going to sit unencrypted on Google servers.
- johnklos 4y ago
  > Which software are you using to push/receive emails on your own servers? Still using sendmail ;) > This is valid if all the other parties that you send emails to self host their email servers as well. I used the word "sitting" deliberately. Of course we can't control the rest of the world's servers, and we can't even fully control those owned by others but rented to us, but we can control our own.
technothrasher 4y ago
> or the reputation of your IP is poor I'd add that it's not just the reputation of your IP, but the reputation of your whole /24 block. That seems to be where a lot of filtering based on reputation takes place. I've got my corporate email server on a VPS (running FreeBSD with exim) with a hosting company that cares about its reputation (and charges a bit more for it) and email delivery is never a problem. I've also got a identically set up but personal email server on a crappy little cheap VPS which does have a static IP and hasn't had any spam on it for years, but plenty of other IPs in the /24 block get filthy with spam. My IP gets blacklisted quite frequently because of it.
- traceroute66 4y ago
  > but the reputation of your whole /24 block. That seems to be where a lot of filtering based on reputation takes place. That is due to the prevalence of what is known as Snowshoe Spam. Spammers get old of (or infiltrate) large net blocks and then spread out their spamming across the entire range. The extreme version of Snowshoe Spam is known as Hailstorm Spam. For fairly obvious reasons ... spammers get hold of (or infiltrate) a large netblock, intensively abuse the hell out of it and then move on.
  - throwaway67743 4y ago
    That has been on a downward trend for some time thankfully, due to the way things work these days it's much easier and more reliable to hijack a vm or rent one with a stolen card, rpki, urpf and carrier verification means using thieved IP space is a lot of effort these days
blue_cookeh 4y ago
Do you have any services you'd recommend to smarthost outgoing mail?
- johnklos 4y ago
  Most service providers don't advertise anything they call "smarthost", but most that do email and that have good reputations will know what you're asking for if you contact their sales. I've recommended Linode and Panix before. Be sure to search for "smarthost" in quotes, because "smarthosting" is a marketing term.
faster 4y ago
Mostly the same here. Physical servers in a colo since 2000, same IPs the whole time. I host a few domains for friends, too. It's really not difficult to keep email running smoothly. I look at a summary report every day (less than a minute, normally), and I have a daily cron job that builds a black list based on whatever list looks good to me when I decide that the one I'm using isn't catching enough. I have a spreadsheet where I compare what it would cost me to do this in a cloud or on VPSs, and though there are some squishy factors (I enjoy messing with servers occasionally, when I have to visit the colo I also visit old friends in that area, etc.) it's still cheaper for me to keep my physical servers in my colo.
Someone1234 4y ago
So self-hosting is so easy and problem free, everyone is making up fiction about the problems, and yet in your very first "solution" you tell people to not self-host outbound email at all and to pay money to a third party to solve a lot of the hard parts for you? > 1) The primary issue brought up is deliverability. If you don't have a static IP, or you don't have control over your reverse DNS PTR, or the reputation of your IP is poor, then pay a company to smarthost your outgoing mail through them. It's a few $ a month, and poof! Problem solved. By that "logic" self-hosting is easy because I could have a third party handle outbound AND inbound mail, which is essentially standard mail hosting with a custom domain. Plus you cannot just turn-key create a high reputation, you start out with low and your emails will be dropped into spam.
- saurik 4y ago
  I mean, that is explained in the comment you respond to: the value most people are looking for with self-hosting email comes from self-hosting inbound SMTP reception and email storage, not the first hop of outbound SMTP submission for relay.
- temptemptemp111 4y ago
  [dead]
thomastjeffery 4y ago
> then pay a company to smarthost your outgoing mail through them. It's a few $ a month, and poof! Poof is right. There goes the primary reason people want to host on their own.
- johnklos 4y ago
  What's the primary reason people want to host on their own, in your opinion? I know of two primary reasons, and neither disappears because of smarthosting.
  - cloudsec9 4y ago
    Not the poster, but I'd say that smarthosting hides visibility (when did this get delivered) and costs money. I would argue that the overhead of setting things up is more pricey then paying for smarthost forwarding, but maybe I'm too practical,
FrontierPsych 4y ago
I looked into hosting my own, but wow, so technical, at least to me. I don't know why there isn't some kind of pre-made install that you just click the "OK" and it downloads and installs the email servers. When I looked at it last, which was about 3 years ago, you had to install 5 or 6 or more different apps, get the interoperatbility going, setting different switches....it was endless. All I want to do is click an "OK" and it is done. Quite frankly, I don't understand how people can write very technical apps like email servers, yet be so completely unable to create a one-click installation feature. This goes with so much more than email, by the way. It seem's like it would be so exceedinly simple to do one-click setups. But I am curious, how exactly did you learn? Did you work with someone who already knew how to do it so you didn't have to learn on your own? Or did you learn 100% on your own? I'd be very curious to learn from you on the above issues.
- cloudsec9 4y ago
  If you make it too easy to set up, you make it ... too easy for spammers and other "marketing specialists" to start sending e-mail, I think is the reason. Right now, they have to be technical (or at least pay $$ to tech people) to get that going, and it does slim down the numbers a little. Getting the software lined up is the easy part, truth be told. It's the anti-spam/malware/anti-relay etc etc that is the challenge. And most big Email companies weigh how long you've been around, so you also have to be patient for your reputation to get high enough not to be in people's junk boxes all the time.

the-anarchist 4y ago

You Sir are badass and should definitely share some of all that on a website/blog of yours. Would be genuinely curious to read more!

mattrighetti 4y ago

Which software are you using to push/receive emails on your own servers? > your email isn't sitting unencrypted on a server that you don't control This is valid if all the other parties that you send emails to self host their email servers as well. If you have your own self hosted mail server but you talk to gmail people then "your" emails are going to sit unencrypted on Google servers.

johnklos 4y ago
> Which software are you using to push/receive emails on your own servers? Still using sendmail ;) > This is valid if all the other parties that you send emails to self host their email servers as well. I used the word "sitting" deliberately. Of course we can't control the rest of the world's servers, and we can't even fully control those owned by others but rented to us, but we can control our own.

technothrasher 4y ago

> or the reputation of your IP is poor I'd add that it's not just the reputation of your IP, but the reputation of your whole /24 block. That seems to be where a lot of filtering based on reputation takes place. I've got my corporate email server on a VPS (running FreeBSD with exim) with a hosting company that cares about its reputation (and charges a bit more for it) and email delivery is never a problem. I've also got a identically set up but personal email server on a crappy little cheap VPS which does have a static IP and hasn't had any spam on it for years, but plenty of other IPs in the /24 block get filthy with spam. My IP gets blacklisted quite frequently because of it.

traceroute66 4y ago
> but the reputation of your whole /24 block. That seems to be where a lot of filtering based on reputation takes place. That is due to the prevalence of what is known as Snowshoe Spam. Spammers get old of (or infiltrate) large net blocks and then spread out their spamming across the entire range. The extreme version of Snowshoe Spam is known as Hailstorm Spam. For fairly obvious reasons ... spammers get hold of (or infiltrate) a large netblock, intensively abuse the hell out of it and then move on.
- throwaway67743 4y ago
  That has been on a downward trend for some time thankfully, due to the way things work these days it's much easier and more reliable to hijack a vm or rent one with a stolen card, rpki, urpf and carrier verification means using thieved IP space is a lot of effort these days

blue_cookeh 4y ago

Do you have any services you'd recommend to smarthost outgoing mail?

johnklos 4y ago
Most service providers don't advertise anything they call "smarthost", but most that do email and that have good reputations will know what you're asking for if you contact their sales. I've recommended Linode and Panix before. Be sure to search for "smarthost" in quotes, because "smarthosting" is a marketing term.

faster 4y ago

Mostly the same here. Physical servers in a colo since 2000, same IPs the whole time. I host a few domains for friends, too. It's really not difficult to keep email running smoothly. I look at a summary report every day (less than a minute, normally), and I have a daily cron job that builds a black list based on whatever list looks good to me when I decide that the one I'm using isn't catching enough. I have a spreadsheet where I compare what it would cost me to do this in a cloud or on VPSs, and though there are some squishy factors (I enjoy messing with servers occasionally, when I have to visit the colo I also visit old friends in that area, etc.) it's still cheaper for me to keep my physical servers in my colo.

Someone1234 4y ago

So self-hosting is so easy and problem free, everyone is making up fiction about the problems, and yet in your very first "solution" you tell people to not self-host outbound email at all and to pay money to a third party to solve a lot of the hard parts for you? > 1) The primary issue brought up is deliverability. If you don't have a static IP, or you don't have control over your reverse DNS PTR, or the reputation of your IP is poor, then pay a company to smarthost your outgoing mail through them. It's a few $ a month, and poof! Problem solved. By that "logic" self-hosting is easy because I could have a third party handle outbound AND inbound mail, which is essentially standard mail hosting with a custom domain. Plus you cannot just turn-key create a high reputation, you start out with low and your emails will be dropped into spam.

saurik 4y ago
I mean, that is explained in the comment you respond to: the value most people are looking for with self-hosting email comes from self-hosting inbound SMTP reception and email storage, not the first hop of outbound SMTP submission for relay.
temptemptemp111 4y ago
[dead]

thomastjeffery 4y ago

> then pay a company to smarthost your outgoing mail through them. It's a few $ a month, and poof! Poof is right. There goes the primary reason people want to host on their own.

johnklos 4y ago
What's the primary reason people want to host on their own, in your opinion? I know of two primary reasons, and neither disappears because of smarthosting.
- cloudsec9 4y ago
  Not the poster, but I'd say that smarthosting hides visibility (when did this get delivered) and costs money. I would argue that the overhead of setting things up is more pricey then paying for smarthost forwarding, but maybe I'm too practical,

FrontierPsych 4y ago

I looked into hosting my own, but wow, so technical, at least to me. I don't know why there isn't some kind of pre-made install that you just click the "OK" and it downloads and installs the email servers. When I looked at it last, which was about 3 years ago, you had to install 5 or 6 or more different apps, get the interoperatbility going, setting different switches....it was endless. All I want to do is click an "OK" and it is done. Quite frankly, I don't understand how people can write very technical apps like email servers, yet be so completely unable to create a one-click installation feature. This goes with so much more than email, by the way. It seem's like it would be so exceedinly simple to do one-click setups. But I am curious, how exactly did you learn? Did you work with someone who already knew how to do it so you didn't have to learn on your own? Or did you learn 100% on your own? I'd be very curious to learn from you on the above issues.

cloudsec9 4y ago
If you make it too easy to set up, you make it ... too easy for spammers and other "marketing specialists" to start sending e-mail, I think is the reason. Right now, they have to be technical (or at least pay $$ to tech people) to get that going, and it does slim down the numbers a little. Getting the software lined up is the easy part, truth be told. It's the anti-spam/malware/anti-relay etc etc that is the challenge. And most big Email companies weigh how long you've been around, so you also have to be patient for your reputation to get high enough not to be in people's junk boxes all the time.