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Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the peop

by c22 4y ago

Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the people spends their lifetime of accrued wealth on themselves, buying a nice car, a huge house, and luxury goods they don't really need. The other person is concerned about the future of their only child and lives well below their means, when they die they will their estate to their child who immediately stops working and never works again. Is that fair? Now consider a third person who also cares for their child. This person also lives frugally but instead of saving their wealth every year they buy their kid fancy cars and luxury goods. They die penniless but their kid never had to work a day in their life. Is that fair?

kelseyfrog 4y ago
It confuses work ethic with fairness. It works because we incorrectly associate good work ethic with positive outcomes. This is a particular to our current time and place in society and we should be very cautious when attempting to universalize it. It would be good to reframe it with consequentialism in mind to reveal the unspoken truths of the examples.
saghm 4y ago
> Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the people spends their lifetime of accrued wealth on themselves, buying a nice car, a huge house, and luxury goods they don't really need. The other person is concerned about the future of their only child and lives well below their means, when they die they will their estate to their child who immediately stops working and never works again. Is that fair? Ten generations later, the descendants of the first person have all been able to expand their wealth purely due to the wealth that their ancestor had. None of them have had to work hard for generations, but they all vigorously defend their right to give their wealth to their kids without taxes so that they also don't have to work hard. Meanwhile, the descendants of the second person are unable to acquire wealth due to the advantage that people like the first person have in controlling capital, and they all work menial jobs for people like the first person. Is that fair?
- voisin 4y ago
  No, it isn’t fair but that can be avoided by adding friction to wealth via an annual wealth tax, and then only applying it on the largest (100m+) fortunes. I don’t think anyone thinks someone who works hard and saves shouldn’t be able to pass on a few million, or even tens of millions, to their descendant. But what you refer to is equally true - no one but the beneficiaries agree that someone should be born into monstrous wealth and be able to sustain generation after generation on the basis only of winning the ovarian lottery. I, personally, would have a tax of 100% on all wealth over $100m.
- philwelch 4y ago
  It would take an extraordinary amount of discipline to maintain that wealth ten generations down the line. “Rags to rags in three generations” is a saying for a reason.
- c22 4y ago
  I limited my hypotheticals to a single generation because I was interested in learning specifically what it is about inheritence that people find unfair. Your response would seem to posit a different set of questions, namely should capital be used to make decisions for society and does a concentration of capital force those without to work a lifetime of menial jobs? I'm less interested in addressing these questions since I've heard a lot about them before and I think it will take us on a further tangent from the original discussion. But I will just say that I see no difference between a first generation person who doesn't work and a tenth generation person who doesn't work beyond perhaps an abstract greater disconnection from the rest of society and the concept of hard working. And that for capital to have influence over society it must be deployed which carries with it the risk of losing said capital.
  - saghm 4y ago
    I'm not sure how you can separate the question about inheritance fairness from multiple generations other than in a very abstract sense because I think the unfairness is most often perceived with wealth that is so great that it will last beyond just the immediate heirs lifetimes. An inheritance of $10,000 is likely not going to last long enough to be passed on to one's own children, but an inheritance of hundreds of millions is presumably not going to be entirely used up in one generation.

by c22 4y ago

kelseyfrog 4y ago

It confuses work ethic with fairness. It works because we incorrectly associate good work ethic with positive outcomes. This is a particular to our current time and place in society and we should be very cautious when attempting to universalize it. It would be good to reframe it with consequentialism in mind to reveal the unspoken truths of the examples.

saghm 4y ago

> Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the people spends their lifetime of accrued wealth on themselves, buying a nice car, a huge house, and luxury goods they don't really need. The other person is concerned about the future of their only child and lives well below their means, when they die they will their estate to their child who immediately stops working and never works again. Is that fair? Ten generations later, the descendants of the first person have all been able to expand their wealth purely due to the wealth that their ancestor had. None of them have had to work hard for generations, but they all vigorously defend their right to give their wealth to their kids without taxes so that they also don't have to work hard. Meanwhile, the descendants of the second person are unable to acquire wealth due to the advantage that people like the first person have in controlling capital, and they all work menial jobs for people like the first person. Is that fair?

voisin 4y ago
No, it isn’t fair but that can be avoided by adding friction to wealth via an annual wealth tax, and then only applying it on the largest (100m+) fortunes. I don’t think anyone thinks someone who works hard and saves shouldn’t be able to pass on a few million, or even tens of millions, to their descendant. But what you refer to is equally true - no one but the beneficiaries agree that someone should be born into monstrous wealth and be able to sustain generation after generation on the basis only of winning the ovarian lottery. I, personally, would have a tax of 100% on all wealth over $100m.
philwelch 4y ago
It would take an extraordinary amount of discipline to maintain that wealth ten generations down the line. “Rags to rags in three generations” is a saying for a reason.
c22 4y ago
I limited my hypotheticals to a single generation because I was interested in learning specifically what it is about inheritence that people find unfair. Your response would seem to posit a different set of questions, namely should capital be used to make decisions for society and does a concentration of capital force those without to work a lifetime of menial jobs? I'm less interested in addressing these questions since I've heard a lot about them before and I think it will take us on a further tangent from the original discussion. But I will just say that I see no difference between a first generation person who doesn't work and a tenth generation person who doesn't work beyond perhaps an abstract greater disconnection from the rest of society and the concept of hard working. And that for capital to have influence over society it must be deployed which carries with it the risk of losing said capital.
- saghm 4y ago
  I'm not sure how you can separate the question about inheritance fairness from multiple generations other than in a very abstract sense because I think the unfairness is most often perceived with wealth that is so great that it will last beyond just the immediate heirs lifetimes. An inheritance of $10,000 is likely not going to last long enough to be passed on to one's own children, but an inheritance of hundreds of millions is presumably not going to be entirely used up in one generation.