5 ms·

True. But it would help some managers to understand that there is more to programming than just achieving business goals.

throwaway98797 4y ago
the only other goal a manager should care about is if the programmer feels fulfilled i bet a lot managers know that devs don’t care about business goals
eastbound 4y ago
As a founder, I pay programmers who care about customers about 50% more. I’ve actually doubled the salary if a total junior within 10 months of hiring, because he cared about business goals. I also work to eject those who can’t work with customers. We’re not here to serve the beauty of JUnit tests. I simply don’t understand the “programmers aren’t paid enough” torpe; It’s only true for purists who don’t dedicate their work to building a business.
- M5x7wI3CmbEem10 4y ago
  thank you for sharing. how did you learn to become an effective owner? any book or blog recommendations?
  - eastbound 4y ago
    HN. Really, that was back at the time of PG essays and Kalzumeus’ 10,000-words blogposts. But I’m probably not an effective manager, I was just a good founder, a passionate creator, and luck/market fit struck me.
- mgkimsal 4y ago
  Perhaps overly semantic, but... there's a conflation of "care about customers" and "cared about business goals" there. Ideally, they're the same thing, but not always. And if you care about customers, but are 'managed' in to doing things which are clearly at odds with what the customers are wanting... you're in a bind.
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    Also a conflation of customers and the users (mentioned upthread). The business's goal is generally to extract as much value as possible from its ability to balance servicing customers and users, and managing operations. I've never worked anywhere where there isn't a fair bit of conflict of interests between those three groups
fallingknife 4y ago
Sorry, but as a professional programmer, the entire point of your existence is to achieve business goals. Why would a business pay you to do anything else?

throwaway98797 4y ago

the only other goal a manager should care about is if the programmer feels fulfilled i bet a lot managers know that devs don’t care about business goals

eastbound 4y ago

As a founder, I pay programmers who care about customers about 50% more. I’ve actually doubled the salary if a total junior within 10 months of hiring, because he cared about business goals. I also work to eject those who can’t work with customers. We’re not here to serve the beauty of JUnit tests. I simply don’t understand the “programmers aren’t paid enough” torpe; It’s only true for purists who don’t dedicate their work to building a business.

M5x7wI3CmbEem10 4y ago
thank you for sharing. how did you learn to become an effective owner? any book or blog recommendations?
- eastbound 4y ago
  HN. Really, that was back at the time of PG essays and Kalzumeus’ 10,000-words blogposts. But I’m probably not an effective manager, I was just a good founder, a passionate creator, and luck/market fit struck me.
mgkimsal 4y ago
Perhaps overly semantic, but... there's a conflation of "care about customers" and "cared about business goals" there. Ideally, they're the same thing, but not always. And if you care about customers, but are 'managed' in to doing things which are clearly at odds with what the customers are wanting... you're in a bind.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Also a conflation of customers and the users (mentioned upthread). The business's goal is generally to extract as much value as possible from its ability to balance servicing customers and users, and managing operations. I've never worked anywhere where there isn't a fair bit of conflict of interests between those three groups

fallingknife 4y ago

Sorry, but as a professional programmer, the entire point of your existence is to achieve business goals. Why would a business pay you to do anything else?