7 ms·

Death to the death of poetry (2001)

28 points by barry-cotter 4y ago

tzs 4y ago
No mention of the biggest issue facing poetry in the US: outsourcing [1]. [1] http://www.watleyreview.com/2003/111103-2.html http://www.watleyreview.com/2003/111103-2.html
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  i think the big issue is simply that the english speaking world, on the whole, prefers its truth tellers, prophets, and poets to be safely long dead, sainted, and rendered harmless thereby.
  - slater- 4y ago
    yes. also every single us city has a street called "martin luther king jr blvd"
    - hprotagonist 4y ago
      i count him among the prophets and the martyrs, for sure. and he has been put on a plinth so he can’t be heard, only to be spoken of in platitudes. He’s far less dangerous to the powers that be, that way.
      - TheDesolate0 4y ago
        [dead]
PLenz 4y ago
Poetey is bigger then ever. We just call it pop music. Certain types of poetry are much less popular but that's because they don't have product-market fit.
- mjburgess 4y ago
  https://genius.com/Eminem-stan-lyrics https://genius.com/Eminem-stan-lyrics https://genius.com/Lcd-soundsystem-losing-my-edge-lyrics https://genius.com/Lcd-soundsystem-losing-my-edge-lyrics etc.
082349872349872 4y ago
> The poetry reading helps—but as a substitute for reviewing it is inefficient. Anyone have any contemporary poetry recommendations? > ...fewer people attend poetry readings in the United States than in Russia. This is probably still true. I was surprised to discover that at music concerts (not pop, but the organisational jubilee variety) there are poetry readings in between the musical numbers. A soviet classroom activity (which may or may not still be used in the RF) was to issue famous lines from classic poems to the class — and each student had to incorporate that line into a composition of their own. Then again, russian peasants also had their answer to United States street vernacular tradition in the частушка: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBpY8w6X_JI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBpY8w6X_JI here, MC Gram spitting mad flow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeuEFZHKYzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeuEFZHKYzM (YT offered me "Chastushki for kids", so this genre even sometime comes in a SFW version!)
- bonecrusher2102 4y ago
  I'm a huge fan of contemporary poetry. I can give a few recommendations, but of course you'll have your own tastes, so I'll try to annotate :) "Here, Bullet" by Brian Turner. Poetry of the Iraq war. "In the Surgical Theatre" by Dana Levin. Medical, experimental. "Black Aperture" by Matt Rasmussen. About his brother's suicide. "Homie" by Danez Smith. Hard to pin down but amazing book. Stream of consciousness, experimental, explores queerness and blackness. "The Tradition" by Jericho Brown. Phenomenal. Explores being black in America, more historicism than Danez's collection. "Frank" by Dianne Seuss. Powerful and beautiful. Modern lyrics. All sonnets. Will change the way you think about what poetry is. Stunning collection. "Post colonial Love Poem" by Natalie Diaz. What it sounds like :) really cool book "When I Grow Up I Want to be a List of Further Possibilities" by Chen Chen. A little bit more fun. All of these, of you're not familiar with contemporary verse, will challenge your notions of "what poetry is." Here's my advice: just read it and experience it. It's supposed to be fun! None of these works are puzzles to be solved, or have hidden secret meanings. They are all works of art, and all experiences of them are valid. Enjoy!
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
karaterobot 4y ago
> More than a thousand poetry books appear in this country each year. More people write poetry in this country—publish it, hear it, and presumably read it—than ever before. He goes on to quote some numbers that make it seem like poetry books are secretly huge sellers, but implies there is a sort of conspiracy keeping us from acknowledging it. I don't find that likely. Bookstores are extremely profit motivated, and not averse to changing their priorities to sell what people want to buy. Science fiction, fantasy, and other genres used to be ghettoized in the back of the store: now they are well-stocked and prominent, because they sell comparatively well. Look at the proportion of shelf space given to poetry books, and where they are located in the foot traffic patterns of bookstores, and I'd suggest that's a good index to its real sales volume, new and used copies included. There are unusual situations where poetry books sell well: I remember when the singer Jewel published one. That moved some copies. But that's not typical of the performance of the rest of the thousand or so volumes published every year, nor of the health of the medium as a whole in terms of economics or impact on culture. I appreciate that the author is making a spirited defense of something he loves, but I think it's incorrect, and it seems insular and out of touch. It seems to be denying reality. The idea that poetry is actually doing great implies that it doesn't need to change in order to be relevant to its audience, that the only thing missing is that we need to wake up and realize everything is totally fine.
- gxonatano 4y ago
  You could certainly get the impression that poetry is dying, or doesn't "sell well," if you live in a region with bookstores that hide poetry. For example, I've been to bookstores in the American South that only seem to sell best-selling novels, cookbooks, and local histories. That's surely a consequence of the profit-motivated impulse you mention, coupled with a cynical view of what people would want to buy. But you can't generalize that to all bookstores, or all cities. Here in New York City, for example, it's abundantly clear that poetry is thriving. Not only are there huge, prominent sections for poetry books in our bookstores, along with sections for poetry anthologies and poetry journals, but we also have at least one bookstore which only sells poetry, and one library, as well. There are poetry readings that happen every day, and at least two bars and clubs devoted exclusively to hosting them, with several others that primarily host them. The poetry book fairs that happen once or twice a year showcase hundreds of newly published books. Lots of other places are like this. I can think of poetry-only bookstores in Boston and Seattle, for instance. And City Lights bookstore in San Francisco has a whole floor dedicated to poetry. Of course, poetry books are not going to sell as well as J.K. Rowling novels. But in terms of the "health of the medium" and the "impact on culture," it's never been better. If you don't see that, it's likely because you live in a place that's at a remove, culturally or geographically, from a cultural center like New York, or from a place with research universities. So who is "insular" and "out of touch," exactly?
bashmelek 4y ago
Perhaps the author is right that the media and public perception exaggerate the status of poetry as dead. I can’t say much about contemporary poetry, but, from the old books I read, I can’t help but feel something isn’t there today that used to be. Maybe older works have a bias for poetry because of education or some other factor, but it felt more ingrained, globally, more a part of who we are as humans.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I think it is two parts alternative entertainment, one part childhood education. When you have digital video, easy access to long distance travel, broadcast television and radio music, video games and such, the emotional impact of a clever turn of phrase is utterly lost. Families don't sit around and listen to someone sing or tell stories, we're all of entertaining ourselves in our own ways, letting the rest of the world be creative for us. As for the education bit, kids learn the thinnest veneer of what poetry is- slap some rhymes together for homework and move on. I recall seeing a young poet at the white house a few years back that everyone was falling over themselves to praise, and... I didn't get it, at all. It was nothing more than a political screed masquerading as rhyming prose. Even the rhymes felt either forced or at the least uninspired. On the other hand, there is this: Edit: this is the link I was originally meaning to share, but I'll leave the second after. This first one is more academic, the second a simple review of the song 's structure https://youtu.be/ooOL4T-BAg0 https://youtu.be/ooOL4T-BAg0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmhtgpVJc4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmhtgpVJc4
AlbertCory 4y ago
Anyone remember poetry slams? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zatHOwWBPEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zatHOwWBPEI Personal story: my childhood best friend's sister married the guy in Chicago who was credited with starting those, locally at least. He was known as Slam Pappy, but now I can't find him because the name is too similar to other Pappy's. Supposedly fame ruined him, and now they're divorced. So you can get rich & famous in poetry; you just have to play your cards right.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  I remembered his name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Smith_%28poet%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Smith_%28poet%29 I think I actually met him, before he was famous.
dang 4y ago
Related: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22donald%20hall%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Notes Nearing Ninety: Learning to Write Less - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17752980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17752980 - Aug 2018 (41 comments) Double Solitude - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12737702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12737702 - Oct 2016 (42 comments)
Rimintil 4y ago
I write poetry to express feelings. I may share <5% of it to an individual. I never share any one poem with more than one individual. How many poets simply don't share at all for personal reasons?
eternityforest 4y ago
I write poetry because it's an extremely accessible form of art. It doesn't depend on muscle memory and the words in your head are exactly the same as the words you write. Someone without the dedication to spend 3 years practicing can write something others want to read, and it can even be performed out loud.
TheDesolate0 4y ago
[dead]

28 points by barry-cotter 4y ago

tzs 4y ago

No mention of the biggest issue facing poetry in the US: outsourcing [1]. [1] http://www.watleyreview.com/2003/111103-2.html http://www.watleyreview.com/2003/111103-2.html

hprotagonist 4y ago
i think the big issue is simply that the english speaking world, on the whole, prefers its truth tellers, prophets, and poets to be safely long dead, sainted, and rendered harmless thereby.
- slater- 4y ago
  yes. also every single us city has a street called "martin luther king jr blvd"
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    i count him among the prophets and the martyrs, for sure. and he has been put on a plinth so he can’t be heard, only to be spoken of in platitudes. He’s far less dangerous to the powers that be, that way.
    - TheDesolate0 4y ago
      [dead]

PLenz 4y ago

Poetey is bigger then ever. We just call it pop music. Certain types of poetry are much less popular but that's because they don't have product-market fit.

mjburgess 4y ago
https://genius.com/Eminem-stan-lyrics https://genius.com/Eminem-stan-lyrics https://genius.com/Lcd-soundsystem-losing-my-edge-lyrics https://genius.com/Lcd-soundsystem-losing-my-edge-lyrics etc.

082349872349872 4y ago

> The poetry reading helps—but as a substitute for reviewing it is inefficient. Anyone have any contemporary poetry recommendations? > ...fewer people attend poetry readings in the United States than in Russia. This is probably still true. I was surprised to discover that at music concerts (not pop, but the organisational jubilee variety) there are poetry readings in between the musical numbers. A soviet classroom activity (which may or may not still be used in the RF) was to issue famous lines from classic poems to the class — and each student had to incorporate that line into a composition of their own. Then again, russian peasants also had their answer to United States street vernacular tradition in the частушка: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBpY8w6X_JI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBpY8w6X_JI here, MC Gram spitting mad flow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeuEFZHKYzM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeuEFZHKYzM (YT offered me "Chastushki for kids", so this genre even sometime comes in a SFW version!)

bonecrusher2102 4y ago
I'm a huge fan of contemporary poetry. I can give a few recommendations, but of course you'll have your own tastes, so I'll try to annotate :) "Here, Bullet" by Brian Turner. Poetry of the Iraq war. "In the Surgical Theatre" by Dana Levin. Medical, experimental. "Black Aperture" by Matt Rasmussen. About his brother's suicide. "Homie" by Danez Smith. Hard to pin down but amazing book. Stream of consciousness, experimental, explores queerness and blackness. "The Tradition" by Jericho Brown. Phenomenal. Explores being black in America, more historicism than Danez's collection. "Frank" by Dianne Seuss. Powerful and beautiful. Modern lyrics. All sonnets. Will change the way you think about what poetry is. Stunning collection. "Post colonial Love Poem" by Natalie Diaz. What it sounds like :) really cool book "When I Grow Up I Want to be a List of Further Possibilities" by Chen Chen. A little bit more fun. All of these, of you're not familiar with contemporary verse, will challenge your notions of "what poetry is." Here's my advice: just read it and experience it. It's supposed to be fun! None of these works are puzzles to be solved, or have hidden secret meanings. They are all works of art, and all experiences of them are valid. Enjoy!
- 082349872349872 4y ago

karaterobot 4y ago

> More than a thousand poetry books appear in this country each year. More people write poetry in this country—publish it, hear it, and presumably read it—than ever before. He goes on to quote some numbers that make it seem like poetry books are secretly huge sellers, but implies there is a sort of conspiracy keeping us from acknowledging it. I don't find that likely. Bookstores are extremely profit motivated, and not averse to changing their priorities to sell what people want to buy. Science fiction, fantasy, and other genres used to be ghettoized in the back of the store: now they are well-stocked and prominent, because they sell comparatively well. Look at the proportion of shelf space given to poetry books, and where they are located in the foot traffic patterns of bookstores, and I'd suggest that's a good index to its real sales volume, new and used copies included. There are unusual situations where poetry books sell well: I remember when the singer Jewel published one. That moved some copies. But that's not typical of the performance of the rest of the thousand or so volumes published every year, nor of the health of the medium as a whole in terms of economics or impact on culture. I appreciate that the author is making a spirited defense of something he loves, but I think it's incorrect, and it seems insular and out of touch. It seems to be denying reality. The idea that poetry is actually doing great implies that it doesn't need to change in order to be relevant to its audience, that the only thing missing is that we need to wake up and realize everything is totally fine.

gxonatano 4y ago
You could certainly get the impression that poetry is dying, or doesn't "sell well," if you live in a region with bookstores that hide poetry. For example, I've been to bookstores in the American South that only seem to sell best-selling novels, cookbooks, and local histories. That's surely a consequence of the profit-motivated impulse you mention, coupled with a cynical view of what people would want to buy. But you can't generalize that to all bookstores, or all cities. Here in New York City, for example, it's abundantly clear that poetry is thriving. Not only are there huge, prominent sections for poetry books in our bookstores, along with sections for poetry anthologies and poetry journals, but we also have at least one bookstore which only sells poetry, and one library, as well. There are poetry readings that happen every day, and at least two bars and clubs devoted exclusively to hosting them, with several others that primarily host them. The poetry book fairs that happen once or twice a year showcase hundreds of newly published books. Lots of other places are like this. I can think of poetry-only bookstores in Boston and Seattle, for instance. And City Lights bookstore in San Francisco has a whole floor dedicated to poetry. Of course, poetry books are not going to sell as well as J.K. Rowling novels. But in terms of the "health of the medium" and the "impact on culture," it's never been better. If you don't see that, it's likely because you live in a place that's at a remove, culturally or geographically, from a cultural center like New York, or from a place with research universities. So who is "insular" and "out of touch," exactly?

bashmelek 4y ago

Perhaps the author is right that the media and public perception exaggerate the status of poetry as dead. I can’t say much about contemporary poetry, but, from the old books I read, I can’t help but feel something isn’t there today that used to be. Maybe older works have a bias for poetry because of education or some other factor, but it felt more ingrained, globally, more a part of who we are as humans.

zdragnar 4y ago
I think it is two parts alternative entertainment, one part childhood education. When you have digital video, easy access to long distance travel, broadcast television and radio music, video games and such, the emotional impact of a clever turn of phrase is utterly lost. Families don't sit around and listen to someone sing or tell stories, we're all of entertaining ourselves in our own ways, letting the rest of the world be creative for us. As for the education bit, kids learn the thinnest veneer of what poetry is- slap some rhymes together for homework and move on. I recall seeing a young poet at the white house a few years back that everyone was falling over themselves to praise, and... I didn't get it, at all. It was nothing more than a political screed masquerading as rhyming prose. Even the rhymes felt either forced or at the least uninspired. On the other hand, there is this: Edit: this is the link I was originally meaning to share, but I'll leave the second after. This first one is more academic, the second a simple review of the song 's structure https://youtu.be/ooOL4T-BAg0 https://youtu.be/ooOL4T-BAg0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmhtgpVJc4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmhtgpVJc4

AlbertCory 4y ago

Anyone remember poetry slams? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zatHOwWBPEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zatHOwWBPEI Personal story: my childhood best friend's sister married the guy in Chicago who was credited with starting those, locally at least. He was known as Slam Pappy, but now I can't find him because the name is too similar to other Pappy's. Supposedly fame ruined him, and now they're divorced. So you can get rich & famous in poetry; you just have to play your cards right.

AlbertCory 4y ago
I remembered his name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Smith_%28poet%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Smith_%28poet%29 I think I actually met him, before he was famous.

dang 4y ago

Related: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22donald%20hall%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... Notes Nearing Ninety: Learning to Write Less - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17752980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17752980 - Aug 2018 (41 comments) Double Solitude - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12737702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12737702 - Oct 2016 (42 comments)

Rimintil 4y ago

I write poetry to express feelings. I may share <5% of it to an individual. I never share any one poem with more than one individual. How many poets simply don't share at all for personal reasons?

eternityforest 4y ago

I write poetry because it's an extremely accessible form of art. It doesn't depend on muscle memory and the words in your head are exactly the same as the words you write. Someone without the dedication to spend 3 years practicing can write something others want to read, and it can even be performed out loud.

TheDesolate0 4y ago

[dead]