4 ms·

What reasons would you hire a self taught software engineer with non CS degree?

I am genuinely curious some reasons that you would hire a self taught software engineer. I read a lot of forums and other people seem to have success rather quickly but I have been working it for over a year now and want to leverage any possible factors that can shift the momentum towards a person who is self taught.

gregjor 4y ago
You can't change how companies decide to hire. You can make yourself a more attractive candidate. In general employers look for people who have relevant experience and the skills they think they need for the job. A degree communicates some level of study and practice in an environment that probably included teamwork and following instructions. If you teach yourself you have to prove you have the programming skills, and that you can work with a team and understand the business domain well enough to add value. To answer your question, an employer will hire a self-taught programmer if they think the programmer can do the job. I don't think the self-taught part causes skepticism, it's more the lack of experience in a business and team environment. A degree isn't a real track record of accomplishment but it's usually accepted as a proxy. I taught myself programming and got a job after a few years of study and practice (mostly while I was in high school and college). I got a job and never finished my degree. That was a long time ago (more than 40 years ago), and back then employers would more frequently hire people they expected to train and mentor. That doesn't seem to happen much these days, everyone has to prove they can fit in and produce right away.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  >I taught myself programming and got a job after a few years of study and practice (mostly while I was in high school and college). I got a job and never finished my degree. That was a long time ago (more than 40 years ago), and back then employers would more frequently hire people they expected to train and mentor. That doesn't seem to happen much these days, everyone has to prove they can fit in and produce right away. 40 years ago, very likely, your salary would have been a "normal" one, and your employer would have had less hurry in having you productive, letting you some more time to learn/adapt/etc. and - as well very likely - your attitude towards the employer would have been different from the one I see common today (let's work here for max 2 years then find another job) and - viceversa - you were likely seen as a resource on which it was worth to invest some time and money in the long run (as opposed to an expendable -and possibly micro-managed - employee that can be repolaced any time). The market has simply changed, not only in computer tech/programming, firms expect that the candidate is "ready" and use (as you say accepted as proxy) degrees and quick technical interviews to justify the choice (of hiring or not hiring you).
  - gregjor 4y ago
    Yes the landscape for programming jobs has changed a lot. I still work as a programmer and system admin. I think employers miss out on developing and keeping good people by not offering a career path for enthusiastic beginners. No training, no mentoring, hit the ground running. And then they complain that people don't show any loyalty to the employer. My first job was with Nike, junior programmer brought on as a contractor with a big crowd of other young programmers looking to get training and experience. We got access to training and assigned two mentors. After two months we either got offered full-time jobs or let go. IT/software development didn't exist as a separate division in big companies back then. I worked in inventory/logistics, so I learned a lot about that business domain along with the programming stuff (DECSystem 20 BASIC, Fortran, COBOL, assembly language). That was a great opportunity to launch my career, and I met some great people there. Decades later one of my former Nike mentors hired me at a software company he had started up.
- henrycodeproj 4y ago
  What resources did you use to get experience, was it through networking with someone else or cold apply?
  - gregjor 4y ago
    Taught myself programming in high school from books and other students who were into it. "Audited" (sat in for free) what few programming classes the local university offered. Read a lot of books. I got lucky and had a couple of good friends/mentors. When I enrolled at college (as a history major) I worked as a tutor in the computer center to pay my tuition. While at that job I got recruited by Nike. They sent people around to local universities recruiting tutors and students working in the computer center. I didn't apply for the job. I've worked in the software business for over 40 years and I don't think I have ever applied for a job. I always got hired because I knew someone, or someone knew me. Contacts and friends always worked best. I got a couple of jobs through recruiters but in both cases I had contacts inside the company.
kidgorgeous 4y ago
[flagged]
- henrycodeproj 4y ago
  I guess 1000+ job apps isn't enough :')
  - Firmwarrior 4y ago
    Don't apply to jobs online, network with people and get referred to one Recruiters treat job applications the same way you treat credit card offers you get in the mail. Talk to your friends, family, professors, family's friends' families, etc and you should be able to drum something up (you're within a couple of verbal hops of thousands of people)
- TotoHorner 4y ago
  Make sure to find the actual recruiter and set them up w/ an email sequence too. You can configure it in HubSpot for free. Just applying on Indeed isn’t enough to get noticed.
adastra22 4y ago
I am one, so…
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
theCrowing 4y ago
"Help me find a job. I can't really write a sentence about my circumstances so you have a chance to provide me a proper answer BUT I can be a dick in the comments." Yeah, maybe it's not the missing degree bud.
austin-cheney 4y ago
I am a self taught JavaScript developer who has been writing JavaScript full time for corporate employment since 2008. I do not have a CS degree. In my experience this decision comes down to two factors: competence versus conformance. If you want to hire somebody good you will look for someone self taught who does this for a hobby on various side projects. Being good at this meant a solid understanding of how web technologies work with a solid foundation in both theory and practice and none of that was taught by universities. Specific examples include: lexical scope, tree model navigation, accessibility, functional programming, asynchronous programming, and so forth. Early on I learned a lot about these concepts reading unrelated books about XML. I didn’t any of these skills coming out of my university educated Java developer peers, which for those guys life was limited to OOP and SQL only. If the goal is to put a body in a seat as rapidly as possible then you will look for somebody with a CS degree and remove competency as a factor as much as possible, which typically means double and triple down on large frameworks and third party tools. The goal is to ship features, not solve problems. I don’t want to be a nothing script kiddy, so as a JavaScript developer I am less employable.
jleyank 4y ago
Not sure there’s enough information. Non-cs degree or no degree? If the former, then I would think anybody with a math or science degree and some evidence of programming skill (particularly python) would generate interest. An arts degree might do the same if you have a portfolio of work that’s interesting. If it’s no degree, I assume a common first question would be “why?”. But provable coding chops and positive personality traits should mitigate that question. Hackers still exist - it’s not taught as much as learned.
- henrycodeproj 4y ago
  I ran out of title space unfortunately but a degree unrelated to CS. Like a social science degree
inphovore 4y ago
A few reasons a self taught candidate may be more attractive: Superior problem solving, self determined, actually interested in the subject and not merely shown how to be so in a formalized environment. The greatest singular advantage I would give those of formal education is regarding their presumed reading and comprehension levels, as well as demonstrated minimum competence in following instructions and completing assignments. With a few specialized exceptions formal education does not competently prepare candidates for general application development. Their methods, stacks, and habits will come by the example given by the existing team. Disclaimer: I am a self taught developer with over ten years experience who has functioned as a hiring manager (hiring dozens of developers and engineers over the years.)

gregjor 4y ago

You can't change how companies decide to hire. You can make yourself a more attractive candidate. In general employers look for people who have relevant experience and the skills they think they need for the job. A degree communicates some level of study and practice in an environment that probably included teamwork and following instructions. If you teach yourself you have to prove you have the programming skills, and that you can work with a team and understand the business domain well enough to add value. To answer your question, an employer will hire a self-taught programmer if they think the programmer can do the job. I don't think the self-taught part causes skepticism, it's more the lack of experience in a business and team environment. A degree isn't a real track record of accomplishment but it's usually accepted as a proxy. I taught myself programming and got a job after a few years of study and practice (mostly while I was in high school and college). I got a job and never finished my degree. That was a long time ago (more than 40 years ago), and back then employers would more frequently hire people they expected to train and mentor. That doesn't seem to happen much these days, everyone has to prove they can fit in and produce right away.

jaclaz 4y ago
>I taught myself programming and got a job after a few years of study and practice (mostly while I was in high school and college). I got a job and never finished my degree. That was a long time ago (more than 40 years ago), and back then employers would more frequently hire people they expected to train and mentor. That doesn't seem to happen much these days, everyone has to prove they can fit in and produce right away. 40 years ago, very likely, your salary would have been a "normal" one, and your employer would have had less hurry in having you productive, letting you some more time to learn/adapt/etc. and - as well very likely - your attitude towards the employer would have been different from the one I see common today (let's work here for max 2 years then find another job) and - viceversa - you were likely seen as a resource on which it was worth to invest some time and money in the long run (as opposed to an expendable -and possibly micro-managed - employee that can be repolaced any time). The market has simply changed, not only in computer tech/programming, firms expect that the candidate is "ready" and use (as you say accepted as proxy) degrees and quick technical interviews to justify the choice (of hiring or not hiring you).
- gregjor 4y ago
  Yes the landscape for programming jobs has changed a lot. I still work as a programmer and system admin. I think employers miss out on developing and keeping good people by not offering a career path for enthusiastic beginners. No training, no mentoring, hit the ground running. And then they complain that people don't show any loyalty to the employer. My first job was with Nike, junior programmer brought on as a contractor with a big crowd of other young programmers looking to get training and experience. We got access to training and assigned two mentors. After two months we either got offered full-time jobs or let go. IT/software development didn't exist as a separate division in big companies back then. I worked in inventory/logistics, so I learned a lot about that business domain along with the programming stuff (DECSystem 20 BASIC, Fortran, COBOL, assembly language). That was a great opportunity to launch my career, and I met some great people there. Decades later one of my former Nike mentors hired me at a software company he had started up.
henrycodeproj 4y ago
What resources did you use to get experience, was it through networking with someone else or cold apply?
- gregjor 4y ago
  Taught myself programming in high school from books and other students who were into it. "Audited" (sat in for free) what few programming classes the local university offered. Read a lot of books. I got lucky and had a couple of good friends/mentors. When I enrolled at college (as a history major) I worked as a tutor in the computer center to pay my tuition. While at that job I got recruited by Nike. They sent people around to local universities recruiting tutors and students working in the computer center. I didn't apply for the job. I've worked in the software business for over 40 years and I don't think I have ever applied for a job. I always got hired because I knew someone, or someone knew me. Contacts and friends always worked best. I got a couple of jobs through recruiters but in both cases I had contacts inside the company.

kidgorgeous 4y ago

[flagged]

henrycodeproj 4y ago
I guess 1000+ job apps isn't enough :')
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  Don't apply to jobs online, network with people and get referred to one Recruiters treat job applications the same way you treat credit card offers you get in the mail. Talk to your friends, family, professors, family's friends' families, etc and you should be able to drum something up (you're within a couple of verbal hops of thousands of people)
TotoHorner 4y ago
Make sure to find the actual recruiter and set them up w/ an email sequence too. You can configure it in HubSpot for free. Just applying on Indeed isn’t enough to get noticed.

adastra22 4y ago

I am one, so…

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

theCrowing 4y ago

"Help me find a job. I can't really write a sentence about my circumstances so you have a chance to provide me a proper answer BUT I can be a dick in the comments." Yeah, maybe it's not the missing degree bud.

austin-cheney 4y ago

I am a self taught JavaScript developer who has been writing JavaScript full time for corporate employment since 2008. I do not have a CS degree. In my experience this decision comes down to two factors: competence versus conformance. If you want to hire somebody good you will look for someone self taught who does this for a hobby on various side projects. Being good at this meant a solid understanding of how web technologies work with a solid foundation in both theory and practice and none of that was taught by universities. Specific examples include: lexical scope, tree model navigation, accessibility, functional programming, asynchronous programming, and so forth. Early on I learned a lot about these concepts reading unrelated books about XML. I didn’t any of these skills coming out of my university educated Java developer peers, which for those guys life was limited to OOP and SQL only. If the goal is to put a body in a seat as rapidly as possible then you will look for somebody with a CS degree and remove competency as a factor as much as possible, which typically means double and triple down on large frameworks and third party tools. The goal is to ship features, not solve problems. I don’t want to be a nothing script kiddy, so as a JavaScript developer I am less employable.

jleyank 4y ago

Not sure there’s enough information. Non-cs degree or no degree? If the former, then I would think anybody with a math or science degree and some evidence of programming skill (particularly python) would generate interest. An arts degree might do the same if you have a portfolio of work that’s interesting. If it’s no degree, I assume a common first question would be “why?”. But provable coding chops and positive personality traits should mitigate that question. Hackers still exist - it’s not taught as much as learned.

henrycodeproj 4y ago
I ran out of title space unfortunately but a degree unrelated to CS. Like a social science degree

inphovore 4y ago

A few reasons a self taught candidate may be more attractive: Superior problem solving, self determined, actually interested in the subject and not merely shown how to be so in a formalized environment. The greatest singular advantage I would give those of formal education is regarding their presumed reading and comprehension levels, as well as demonstrated minimum competence in following instructions and completing assignments. With a few specialized exceptions formal education does not competently prepare candidates for general application development. Their methods, stacks, and habits will come by the example given by the existing team. Disclaimer: I am a self taught developer with over ten years experience who has functioned as a hiring manager (hiring dozens of developers and engineers over the years.)