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>But I have real questions about exactly who isn't getting this kind of generous treatment. You've uncovered the unjust nature of the cash bail system as a who

>But I have real questions about exactly who isn't getting this kind of generous treatment. You've uncovered the unjust nature of the cash bail system as a whole. The efforts being made to get rid of it in California are a huge step forward toward making the system more equitable.

lazide 4y ago
CAlifornia is a poster child for how cash bail is bad, but the other options are far worse. It’s gotten to the point that non-felony offenses mostly just get ignored by police, and theft is skyrocketing everywhere.
- djur 4y ago
  There was a nationwide increase in crime and I've seen zero evidence that bail reform was a cause of increased crime anywhere.
  - jcampbell1 4y ago
    Covid was the biggest bail reform experiment in history. Typically for any non-violent crime in the US, people get ROR'd (released on own recognizance) so long as they don't have any outstanding warrants. Bail is for people that have a history of skipping court (outstanding warrants). During Covid, everyone got ROR'd regardless of outstanding warrants, because getting caught shoplifting and the cops find 3 points of meth in their pocket shouldn't be death sentence. Normally that type of person would be given a $5000 bail if this was their second time getting caught. If they were unemployed, they would dry out in jail and hopefully come out the other side on a better path. During covid everyone was released on zero bail. Homelessness and crime spiked across the US. There are places that think it is a good idea to make covid bail policies permanent. The experiment is running now.
- sdenton4 4y ago
  Sigh... Theft is not 'skyrocketing everywhere.' it's been steadily decreasing for years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-theft-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/#statisticContainer https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-... Polls before the last election said everyone thought crime was going up... Somewhere else.
  - HyperSane 4y ago
    Organized retail theft does seem to be increasing.
  - ericd 4y ago
    I’ve worked with crime reporting data before, the quality is… not high.
  - hackrnusr 4y ago
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/shoplifting-stores-problem-11671737792 https://www.wsj.com/articles/shoplifting-stores-problem-1167...
  - lazide 4y ago
    In retail stores, I’ve seen it with my own eyes all across the Bay Area. It’s gone from occasional, ‘tries to hide it’ shoplifting to brazen ‘runs off with a shopping cart full of tools/baby food/electronics in the daylight daily’ in a handful of years. Stores are changing their display practices to try to compensate (locking up anything over a certain dollar threshold), but it’s easy to bypass. Last week when talking to one guy (Home Depot in Santa Clara) while buying a power tool, he said they’d had over $14k taken in the last few weeks alone from that store. I’ve seen folks do the runs myself while picking up Electronics too. The staff just sighs, takes a note, and continues on with their day. Notably, it seems like it’s co-ordinated. when talking to the staff, they say it’s a different person each time, but very frequent now. shrug
    - wpietri 4y ago
      As long as we're using dueling anecdotes, I've lived in SF 20+ years, and as far as I can tell crime levels are about the same. Is it possible that criminal groups are doing some organized shoplifting? I'd believe it. But this may be just a change in method for existing criminals. Or it may be that we're hearing about it more because it's a topic that has gained sudden media interest. In any case, that cuts against your theory that the cops don't care, because doing it in bulk or in an organized fashion will turn it from a misdemeanor to a felony, making cops much more interested. And indeed, SF just announced results from exactly that kind of operation: https://sfist.com/2022/12/16/sfpd-touts-60-arrests-in-new-retail-shoplifting-crackdown/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/16/sfpd-touts-60-arrests-in-new-re...

lazide 4y ago

CAlifornia is a poster child for how cash bail is bad, but the other options are far worse. It’s gotten to the point that non-felony offenses mostly just get ignored by police, and theft is skyrocketing everywhere.

djur 4y ago
There was a nationwide increase in crime and I've seen zero evidence that bail reform was a cause of increased crime anywhere.
- jcampbell1 4y ago
  Covid was the biggest bail reform experiment in history. Typically for any non-violent crime in the US, people get ROR'd (released on own recognizance) so long as they don't have any outstanding warrants. Bail is for people that have a history of skipping court (outstanding warrants). During Covid, everyone got ROR'd regardless of outstanding warrants, because getting caught shoplifting and the cops find 3 points of meth in their pocket shouldn't be death sentence. Normally that type of person would be given a $5000 bail if this was their second time getting caught. If they were unemployed, they would dry out in jail and hopefully come out the other side on a better path. During covid everyone was released on zero bail. Homelessness and crime spiked across the US. There are places that think it is a good idea to make covid bail policies permanent. The experiment is running now.
sdenton4 4y ago
Sigh... Theft is not 'skyrocketing everywhere.' it's been steadily decreasing for years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-theft-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/#statisticContainer https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-... Polls before the last election said everyone thought crime was going up... Somewhere else.
- HyperSane 4y ago
  Organized retail theft does seem to be increasing.
- ericd 4y ago
  I’ve worked with crime reporting data before, the quality is… not high.
- hackrnusr 4y ago
  https://www.wsj.com/articles/shoplifting-stores-problem-11671737792 https://www.wsj.com/articles/shoplifting-stores-problem-1167...
- lazide 4y ago
  In retail stores, I’ve seen it with my own eyes all across the Bay Area. It’s gone from occasional, ‘tries to hide it’ shoplifting to brazen ‘runs off with a shopping cart full of tools/baby food/electronics in the daylight daily’ in a handful of years. Stores are changing their display practices to try to compensate (locking up anything over a certain dollar threshold), but it’s easy to bypass. Last week when talking to one guy (Home Depot in Santa Clara) while buying a power tool, he said they’d had over $14k taken in the last few weeks alone from that store. I’ve seen folks do the runs myself while picking up Electronics too. The staff just sighs, takes a note, and continues on with their day. Notably, it seems like it’s co-ordinated. when talking to the staff, they say it’s a different person each time, but very frequent now. shrug
  - wpietri 4y ago
    As long as we're using dueling anecdotes, I've lived in SF 20+ years, and as far as I can tell crime levels are about the same. Is it possible that criminal groups are doing some organized shoplifting? I'd believe it. But this may be just a change in method for existing criminals. Or it may be that we're hearing about it more because it's a topic that has gained sudden media interest. In any case, that cuts against your theory that the cops don't care, because doing it in bulk or in an organized fashion will turn it from a misdemeanor to a felony, making cops much more interested. And indeed, SF just announced results from exactly that kind of operation: https://sfist.com/2022/12/16/sfpd-touts-60-arrests-in-new-retail-shoplifting-crackdown/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/16/sfpd-touts-60-arrests-in-new-re...