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We shouldn't parent our citizens. If it's important to them, they're free to choose another social media platform or make their own. When we decide we know how
by kelseyfrog 4y ago
We shouldn't parent our citizens. If it's important to them, they're free to choose another social media platform or make their own. When we decide we know how to run people's lives better than them, we run head first into authoritarianism. If the US goes down that path then the CCP has already won.
- jhanschoo 4y agoThe reply you are replying to isn't making an argument regarding government paternalism, but regarding economic protectionism. You aren't addressing that. An analogy: embargos against countries that do not adhere to international IP treaties.
- KennyBlanken 4y agoIt's not really a matter of "international IP treaties", Tiktok's app is spyware that collects extensive data about users and includes remote command and control capabilities that have no excuse or reason for existing in a social media app. https://penetrum.com/tiktok/Penetrum_TikTok_Security_Analysis_whitepaper.pdf https://penetrum.com/tiktok/Penetrum_TikTok_Security_Analysi...
- jhanschoo 4y agoYes, the reason the government gives isn't about economic protectionism either, but that's the argument the person was making.
- babypuncher 4y agoAmerican social media apps do the same yet for some reason we are OK with them doing it.
- dinkumthinkum 4y agoHonestly, I think the content on TikTok is doing more harm than anything else.
- roenxi 4y agoIt isn't clear that the argument is either which way. If we interpret it economically, the argument is a variant of "we should cut off our own nose to spite our face". Why should the American consumer be hampered because the Chinese consumer is hampered? That isn't clever. But there is a pretty good military argument. Giving the Chinese government an easy way in to most mobile devices seems like a rookie mistake. Ideally, the US should legislate that all code is covered by the GPLv2 or v3 so we can monitor what is going on and be positioned to exercise freedom from Chinese spying. That's be the best of most worlds. The real issue here is, as usual, that we can't see the source code so we don't know what it does.
- mantas 4y agoEconomically it’s more like if Chinese companies are helped by the government, why can’t West do the same? Same as anti-dumping import taxes.
- roenxi 4y agoThe question isn't one of "can" and "can't". The west is empowered to make its own people worse off. The politicians do so all the time. The issue is we've got a situation with a high quality Chinese option and lower quality western one. Obviously Westerners will be worse off if the high quality option is banned. They all wanted to use that one (otherwise it wouldn't be necessary to ban it). It is obviously making them pick an option they'd rather not. There is no economic reason to voluntarily make people worse off. It is pure downside. > Same as anti-dumping import taxes. They're also on shaky footing and probably make people worse off for little gain. Wikipedia humorously notes that in the EU 98% of the time anti dumping laws are being used to target things other than dumping. Academics have to be pretty wild-eyed to argue that people need to be protected from large amounts of cheap stuff. I personally can't even imagine their horror. If someone sells you stuff for cheap, buy it for cheap. The market will work it out.
- mantas 4y agoIn anti-dumping, it’s protecting not the people. It’s protecting local market. Goods at dumped prices will disrupt local markets and bankrupt local competitors. Then dumpers can raise prices way beyond initial prices to win jackpot. That when „the people“ loose. Local know-how is destroyed, industry ruined… and you end up paying a ton for imported goods. Personally I don’t think TikTok is „better“. It’s more addictive and has a ton of marketing moneys pushing it forward. Should we not ban cocaine because the masses think it’s a great entertainment?
- kmeisthax 4y agoThis isn't about parenting our citizens, it's about forcing China to pass laws Americans want. If you want American market access you give Americans access to the Chinese market.
- km3r 4y agoThis isn't about parenting our citizens, it's about protecting America business from unfair foreign competition. China is a massive market they get exclusive access to that gives them a huge advantage. For example, they can afford to not run as many ads as American companies. Our free market is only available to other free markets.
- kelseyfrog 4y agoBanning products always distorts markets. If the US decides to distort markets for ideological reasons the CCP has already won.
- dymk 4y agoDistorting a market isn’t always a bad thing.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago> Banning products always distorts markets. This truism doesn't really say anything. Things can distort more than one way. If China has distorted markets in its favor, you would certainly want to distort them back toward neutral or to your favor. > If the US decides to distort markets for ideological reasons the CCP has already won. Won what?
- anigbrowl 4y agoThe US already distorts markets for ideological reasons. Also, you're characterizing ideology as the only space of conflict, and since ideologies are necessarily abstractions you can just go into endless recursion saying 'if X does Y then Z has already won' without it being measurable in any meaningful way. That kind of argument is its own thought terminating cliche.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- remarkEon 4y agoMarkets are just a tool. They are not a god that we have to grovel to, and when markets start to allow things that are detrimental to the health and security of a country and her citizens then the government is absolutely in the right to step in as Sovereign and stop it.
- zadler 4y agotragedy of the commons…
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- rebelos 4y ago> When we decide we know how to run people's lives better than them, we run head first into authoritarianism. This kind of shortsighted thinking has created a world of corporations that relentlessly exploit consumers, often with ruinous effects on wellbeing.
- noobermin 4y agoThis really does not follow, please explain.
- rebelos 4y agoLet me counter with a couple of questions for you. Do you believe the point of government is to protect people from harm? And, do you believe that, for example, making someone addicted to junk food and obese or addicted to their phone for 20+ hours out of their waking time per week are examples of harm? Not everyone would answer yes to both questions. Some, like the original commenter I was replying to, believe that people should be free to destroy themselves, helped along by the external forces acting upon them.
- zaphirplane 4y agoLike seat belts, prescription medication, drugs, background checks on firearms. Taxes The government purpose is to make the citizens life better throw away unqualified statements of “nanny state” is just close to barbarism
- flappyeagle 4y agoThis is what I mean by “insanity”. We have an adversary that’s punching us in the face and rather than defend ourselves or fight back we lean into the punch because “the free market”. The market is already unfree. We’re banned from the entire Chinese market. And it will remain asymmetrical until we decide to pick up and walk away.
- 8note 4y agoSo what? It's chinese consumers that lose by keeping American companies out. I don't understand the reasoning on wanting to punish American consumers until Chinese consumers get a better deal
- flappyeagle 4y agoYou’re missing half the equation. It’s Americans that lose out by not being able to sell into the Chinese market. Banning TikTok doesn’t hurt American consumers in any real sense. They can amuse themselves with short form video from any number of providers. Social media is a zero sum battle for your non-sleeping hours at this point.
- edgyquant 4y agoNo it isn’t it’s American citizens who are feeding the Chinese intelligence apparatus directly about their entire lives. This is not a personal preference but a giant information gathering net. Hence why China bans ours because they know this is a ridiculous thing to allow
- AntiRemoteWork 4y ago[dead]