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> watch the real world examples of “unregulated ethical businesses” melt away into the realm of the theoretical Try an example of a regulated ethical business.

> watch the real world examples of “unregulated ethical businesses” melt away into the realm of the theoretical Try an example of a regulated ethical business. Exxon? Verizon? Amazon? Nestle? UnitedHealth Group? Pfizer? General Motors? DuPont? Regulation is just as much a pipe dream as libertarianism

alexhsamuel 4y ago
Now try imagining those businesses in a world without regulation. No one has suggested that regulation will produce ethical business. The proposal is to impose regulation to limit the unethical behavior of business, which is something quite different.
- hammock 4y ago
  > Now try imagining those businesses in a world without regulation. You’ve brought us back to the theoretical world we were trying to avoid…
fragmede 4y ago
Unless you're allergic to the entire concept of modern banking, I think most credit unions would apply. Local restaurants run by good people also would also seem to count.
rqtwteye 4y ago
Regulation reduces unethical behavior in the same way that laws reduce things like people killing each other. They don't eliminate bad behavior 100% but they reduce it by a lot. I grew up in the 70s and I can tell you what positive impact environmental regulation had on the world. It's not perfect but without these rules nothing would have happened. Big business fight every little step tooth and nail.
- hammock 4y ago
  > I grew up in the 70s and I can tell you what positive impact environmental regulation had on the world. It's not perfect but without these rules nothing would have happened. I grew up in East Germany and I can tell you what positive impact free markets had on my country. It's not perfect but without these freedoms nothing would have happened
  - mrighele 4y ago
    Free market doesn't mean unregulated market
    - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
      Unregulated market doesn't mean a market with no referees or judges to settle disputes.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - rqtwteye 4y ago
        When you have judges and referees you need rules. How else would they make decisions?
    - godelski 4y ago
      Funny thing is Adam Smith talks about this extensively despite being the poster child for an unregulated "free" market.
      - cfraenkel 4y ago
        Adam Smith's free markets weren't about not having regulations. He was talking about markets free from the extractive rents going to the landed aristocracy. Rents on the farms meant workers food was more expensive so factories had to pay more to keep the workers from starving.
        godelski 4y ago
        Smith wasn't an anarchist and didn't believe in a completely unregulated market, but rather that a free market involves careful regulation to ensure a fair playing ground. Yeah, there is also a lot about the problems of rent seeking and I agree there, but my point is that the free market he was referring to isn't the "free market" many people today associate with the term. We have similar issues to his concept of the invisible hand (which was only mentioned once in each book).
godelski 4y ago
Regulation of these specific companies has saved many lives. We've reduced lead in gasoline which has increased IQ, decreased violence, and improved average well-being. We can find similar effects in each of these markets. While I agree that none of these markets act in a purely ethical manner it is hard to argue that regulation didn't reduce harm that these companies were causing prior to the regulation. If we perform purity tests we just give advantages to those doing the most harm as we squabble about the impossibility of doing no harm in a vastly complex and interconnected world. Instead, focus on harm reduction, which we can continually perform and converge towards a more perfect solution rather than requiring that we go all in or not at all.
- hammock 4y ago
  Deregulation has saved lives just as regulation has. How many millions have been brought out of poverty and saved from starvation during the globalist revolution? My point is that regulation is not a panacea and sounds great in theory, just like free markets sound great in theory to others. An open mind and a flexible approach are warranted
  - rqtwteye 4y ago
    "An open mind and a flexible approach are warranted" Of course. You can't just blindly follow an ideology but you have to constantly think about the proper balance of all factors. Overregulation is not good and neither is underregulation.
  - godelski 4y ago
    > Deregulation has saved lives just as regulation has. I don't disagree. I'm more an Adam Smith guy. Low regulation is good, but that doesn't mean zero. Zero regulation is just as terrible as the government picking winners and losers. These discussions require a lot of nuance. I, and I'm assuming many others, read your comment as a very typical libertarian "free market" (but like communism, has "never really existed"), as your comment doesn't even hint at a nuance. I tried to allude to this in mine with my comment about the incredible complexity of our modern world, but I guess this too was missed. So I hope that is abundantly explicit now.

alexhsamuel 4y ago

Now try imagining those businesses in a world without regulation. No one has suggested that regulation will produce ethical business. The proposal is to impose regulation to limit the unethical behavior of business, which is something quite different.

hammock 4y ago
> Now try imagining those businesses in a world without regulation. You’ve brought us back to the theoretical world we were trying to avoid…

fragmede 4y ago

Unless you're allergic to the entire concept of modern banking, I think most credit unions would apply. Local restaurants run by good people also would also seem to count.

rqtwteye 4y ago

Regulation reduces unethical behavior in the same way that laws reduce things like people killing each other. They don't eliminate bad behavior 100% but they reduce it by a lot. I grew up in the 70s and I can tell you what positive impact environmental regulation had on the world. It's not perfect but without these rules nothing would have happened. Big business fight every little step tooth and nail.

hammock 4y ago
> I grew up in the 70s and I can tell you what positive impact environmental regulation had on the world. It's not perfect but without these rules nothing would have happened. I grew up in East Germany and I can tell you what positive impact free markets had on my country. It's not perfect but without these freedoms nothing would have happened
- mrighele 4y ago
  Free market doesn't mean unregulated market
  - IG_Semmelweiss 4y ago
    Unregulated market doesn't mean a market with no referees or judges to settle disputes.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - rqtwteye 4y ago
      When you have judges and referees you need rules. How else would they make decisions?
  - godelski 4y ago
    Funny thing is Adam Smith talks about this extensively despite being the poster child for an unregulated "free" market.
    - cfraenkel 4y ago
      Adam Smith's free markets weren't about not having regulations. He was talking about markets free from the extractive rents going to the landed aristocracy. Rents on the farms meant workers food was more expensive so factories had to pay more to keep the workers from starving.
      - godelski 4y ago
        Smith wasn't an anarchist and didn't believe in a completely unregulated market, but rather that a free market involves careful regulation to ensure a fair playing ground. Yeah, there is also a lot about the problems of rent seeking and I agree there, but my point is that the free market he was referring to isn't the "free market" many people today associate with the term. We have similar issues to his concept of the invisible hand (which was only mentioned once in each book).

godelski 4y ago

Regulation of these specific companies has saved many lives. We've reduced lead in gasoline which has increased IQ, decreased violence, and improved average well-being. We can find similar effects in each of these markets. While I agree that none of these markets act in a purely ethical manner it is hard to argue that regulation didn't reduce harm that these companies were causing prior to the regulation. If we perform purity tests we just give advantages to those doing the most harm as we squabble about the impossibility of doing no harm in a vastly complex and interconnected world. Instead, focus on harm reduction, which we can continually perform and converge towards a more perfect solution rather than requiring that we go all in or not at all.

hammock 4y ago
Deregulation has saved lives just as regulation has. How many millions have been brought out of poverty and saved from starvation during the globalist revolution? My point is that regulation is not a panacea and sounds great in theory, just like free markets sound great in theory to others. An open mind and a flexible approach are warranted
- rqtwteye 4y ago
  "An open mind and a flexible approach are warranted" Of course. You can't just blindly follow an ideology but you have to constantly think about the proper balance of all factors. Overregulation is not good and neither is underregulation.
- godelski 4y ago
  > Deregulation has saved lives just as regulation has. I don't disagree. I'm more an Adam Smith guy. Low regulation is good, but that doesn't mean zero. Zero regulation is just as terrible as the government picking winners and losers. These discussions require a lot of nuance. I, and I'm assuming many others, read your comment as a very typical libertarian "free market" (but like communism, has "never really existed"), as your comment doesn't even hint at a nuance. I tried to allude to this in mine with my comment about the incredible complexity of our modern world, but I guess this too was missed. So I hope that is abundantly explicit now.