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C is one of those things that unless you have proper testing, tooling and linting you don't know if you code is incorrect. It may have subtle memory bugs, rely

C is one of those things that unless you have proper testing, tooling and linting you don't know if you code is incorrect. It may have subtle memory bugs, rely on undefined behavior or crumple in exploitable ways under bad input. Having a feedback loop is really important in learning and improving. Undefined behavior helps subvert it. For the exact example of above, how would a developer learn not to use gets? The best place would be a section on red flags in API design in the book. If you don't have that you need to find it through experience. Lints, fuzzing, sanitizers can help, but once again, none of this is covered in K&R. Some of it just didn't exist at the time or if it did, it was very primitive compared to what we have today. Developers could pick up bad habits and be productive for years with them before they get bit by them. I know I did. I look back at some of the practices I picked up when first learning and cringe a bit. Especially since I think a fair amount of that code is still in production.

sfpotter 4y ago
All of this is true, but if you are just starting with C, none of it matters. If you continue using C, then you should eventually learn this stuff, but to overburden someone with a list of 100 things they must do right is the surest way to frustrate them to the point where they give up. If OP eventually writes C code that goes into production for a company, it is the company's responsibility to have procedures and safeguards which ensure that OP writes reasonable code. Ideally, one such safeguard will be a senior colleague to introduce them to the thornier parts of C. To expect a beginner to learn all of the finer points of a topic from the start is bad pedagogy. On the other hand, K&R provides a set of exercises which are fun, graded, interesting, and challenging. By the time you finish them, you have a working knowledge of a large and useful subset of C. You can then proceed to reading another book (or consulting some other reference). Invariably, you will find that they disagree with K&R to some extent. Learning to spot these differences and begin to understand how C has evolved is itself an important lesson.
- stusmall 4y ago
  > If OP eventually writes C code that goes into production for a company, it is the company's responsibility to have procedures and safeguards which ensure that OP writes reasonable code. Ideally, one such safeguard will be a senior colleague to introduce them to the thornier parts of C. You've mentioned something like this in reply to a few comments in here. This is a strange argument. It isn't too much to ask of a book to lay down more of a foundation so you don't need a 1 on 1 tutor later to correct misconceptions. I get people like K&R because it is short and easy to read. Some subjects aren't best served by short and easy to read. The subject was well served by it when C was new and novel. We live in a very different world.
  - sfpotter 4y ago
    You don't actually seem to be addressing the quoted text... but I can reply to your arguments. Sure, it would be ideal if there were a new book on C which did a better job of explaining some of the developments since K&R 2ed was written. If that book exists, I'm not aware of it. All of the books I've seen recommended are either too long, or poorly written. K&R's strong advantage isn't that it's short, it's that it's very strong pedagogically. A "how do I learn C?" thread comes up on HN about once a month. In each of these threads, people will steer people clear of K&R, quoting something or another about how K&R isn't appropriate for this day and age (note: you do not explain why you think it isn't appropriate!). The tacit assumption here is that you can only read one book, or that if you read a book which isn't "perfect", you are somehow tainting yourself with corrupted knowledge. I think this is nonsense. An important meta-skill for learning is the ability to discern between good and bad information. The only way to build that skill is by consulting multiple sources. Note that in my actual reply to OP, I don't specifically advocate for reading K&R, but instead to take a multipronged approach where you primarily draw from whatever learning medium you're most comfortable with. Most people I know that are in their early 20s or younger prefer learning from videos (I'm a math teacher and have lots of experience with people this age).
    - stusmall 4y ago
      I think you've got a bit of a strawman in your head. Look back up at some of my comments you are replying to, namely the top one in this chain. A friend describes this as "violent agreement." I agree that it can be best to have a multipronged approach. That's why I said "It's a good technical book. A great one for it's time and subject matter. But that caveat is important, it needs to be taken in context of the time. It shouldn't be the first, and absolutely not the only, book you read if you are writing modern production C in 2023." I also address its short comings in that post.

sfpotter 4y ago

All of this is true, but if you are just starting with C, none of it matters. If you continue using C, then you should eventually learn this stuff, but to overburden someone with a list of 100 things they must do right is the surest way to frustrate them to the point where they give up. If OP eventually writes C code that goes into production for a company, it is the company's responsibility to have procedures and safeguards which ensure that OP writes reasonable code. Ideally, one such safeguard will be a senior colleague to introduce them to the thornier parts of C. To expect a beginner to learn all of the finer points of a topic from the start is bad pedagogy. On the other hand, K&R provides a set of exercises which are fun, graded, interesting, and challenging. By the time you finish them, you have a working knowledge of a large and useful subset of C. You can then proceed to reading another book (or consulting some other reference). Invariably, you will find that they disagree with K&R to some extent. Learning to spot these differences and begin to understand how C has evolved is itself an important lesson.

stusmall 4y ago
> If OP eventually writes C code that goes into production for a company, it is the company's responsibility to have procedures and safeguards which ensure that OP writes reasonable code. Ideally, one such safeguard will be a senior colleague to introduce them to the thornier parts of C. You've mentioned something like this in reply to a few comments in here. This is a strange argument. It isn't too much to ask of a book to lay down more of a foundation so you don't need a 1 on 1 tutor later to correct misconceptions. I get people like K&R because it is short and easy to read. Some subjects aren't best served by short and easy to read. The subject was well served by it when C was new and novel. We live in a very different world.
- sfpotter 4y ago
  You don't actually seem to be addressing the quoted text... but I can reply to your arguments. Sure, it would be ideal if there were a new book on C which did a better job of explaining some of the developments since K&R 2ed was written. If that book exists, I'm not aware of it. All of the books I've seen recommended are either too long, or poorly written. K&R's strong advantage isn't that it's short, it's that it's very strong pedagogically. A "how do I learn C?" thread comes up on HN about once a month. In each of these threads, people will steer people clear of K&R, quoting something or another about how K&R isn't appropriate for this day and age (note: you do not explain why you think it isn't appropriate!). The tacit assumption here is that you can only read one book, or that if you read a book which isn't "perfect", you are somehow tainting yourself with corrupted knowledge. I think this is nonsense. An important meta-skill for learning is the ability to discern between good and bad information. The only way to build that skill is by consulting multiple sources. Note that in my actual reply to OP, I don't specifically advocate for reading K&R, but instead to take a multipronged approach where you primarily draw from whatever learning medium you're most comfortable with. Most people I know that are in their early 20s or younger prefer learning from videos (I'm a math teacher and have lots of experience with people this age).
  - stusmall 4y ago
    I think you've got a bit of a strawman in your head. Look back up at some of my comments you are replying to, namely the top one in this chain. A friend describes this as "violent agreement." I agree that it can be best to have a multipronged approach. That's why I said "It's a good technical book. A great one for it's time and subject matter. But that caveat is important, it needs to be taken in context of the time. It shouldn't be the first, and absolutely not the only, book you read if you are writing modern production C in 2023." I also address its short comings in that post.