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I like how the article brings attention to this issue, and I especially like its list of examples of hostile behavior. The actionable-advice part it transitions

I like how the article brings attention to this issue, and I especially like its list of examples of hostile behavior. The actionable-advice part it transitions to is a bit odd, culminating at the list of the bottom of what to do as an engineer and project manager. It reads to me something like: " Hey bandits! Do this: - Don't mug people - Be ethical - Treat people with respect - Threatening bodily injury and death is bad too! - Instead of robbing banks, earn money through an occupation "

revolvingocelot 4y ago
Yeah, really. That said, anything that advances cultural acknowledgement of banditry is a good thing. Right now people are walking around with titles like Senior Stagecoach Divestiture Specialist and everyone pretends that it's normal.
alexhsamuel 4y ago
Exactly this. It's now "industry standard" to mug people; why should I swear your Hippocratic oath when everyone else is getting rich? Instead of asking developers (the organizations, not the individuals) to mend their ways, we users need to take action to defend ourselves. - Education. People who didn't use computers in the earlier age of full user agency might not even imagine a world where they fully control their devices. - Advertising. One should not be allowed to advertise "selling" something without handing over full control. - Law. Shrink-wrap licenses should be neutered, software patents limited, DMCA abolished; these are legal moats around developers' power. - Technology. Open software, open hardware, open data, self-hostable services. - Platforms. It's time to treat software as hostile by default, the way an Internet connection is now de facto hostile. The OS needs to be hardened not only against hackers, but also against developers. These are vague generalities, not concrete suggestions, and there are huge obstacles to each. Perhaps others have useful suggestions.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  > why should I swear your Hippocratic oath when everyone else is getting rich? One must cultivate one's own garden.
  - cfraenkel 4y ago
    That's implied in the "your". Go ahead and be happy in your garden. But don't expect anyone else to follow along.
emodendroket 4y ago
Plus, like, OK, imagine I'm an engineer. "I don't think customers would like this feature. In fact I think it's against their interests." "We appreciate your concern, but we've judged that this feature actually benefits customers, so please implement as specified." Discussion over.
- barnabee 4y ago
  Quit. “I was just doing my job” stops being an excuse at some point…
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    If they were ordering me to do war crimes I suppose I would but I don't think the annoyances in this article are quite at that level and I question the idea that you'll find anywhere that never makes any decisions you don't agree with.
- salawat 4y ago
  If Software Engineers operated at parity with other Engineering fields, the conversation could be quite different. "I will not sign off on your design as specified. Change the design, or Do Not Operate". Any attempts to implement and operate without sign off will be reported to the authorities, because the Public's Interest, and my continued licensure are more important than your empire building." At this point, I think I'll suffer the burden of licensure to keep unethical groups/impls in check.
  - jbay808 4y ago
    In Canada, if you have a P. Eng, you can do that (and, in fact, must). (I don't know how many software developers have P. Engs though. The regulators try to extend the coverage of their regulation to encompass software and tech, but at the same time ignore a lot of tech companies and workers operating without license. They also tend to write rules with an implicit assumption that all engineers are working in big utilities or mining companies, making it very hard for tech workers to jump through those hoops and get licensed.) /rant

revolvingocelot 4y ago

Yeah, really. That said, anything that advances cultural acknowledgement of banditry is a good thing. Right now people are walking around with titles like Senior Stagecoach Divestiture Specialist and everyone pretends that it's normal.

alexhsamuel 4y ago

Exactly this. It's now "industry standard" to mug people; why should I swear your Hippocratic oath when everyone else is getting rich? Instead of asking developers (the organizations, not the individuals) to mend their ways, we users need to take action to defend ourselves. - Education. People who didn't use computers in the earlier age of full user agency might not even imagine a world where they fully control their devices. - Advertising. One should not be allowed to advertise "selling" something without handing over full control. - Law. Shrink-wrap licenses should be neutered, software patents limited, DMCA abolished; these are legal moats around developers' power. - Technology. Open software, open hardware, open data, self-hostable services. - Platforms. It's time to treat software as hostile by default, the way an Internet connection is now de facto hostile. The OS needs to be hardened not only against hackers, but also against developers. These are vague generalities, not concrete suggestions, and there are huge obstacles to each. Perhaps others have useful suggestions.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
> why should I swear your Hippocratic oath when everyone else is getting rich? One must cultivate one's own garden.
- cfraenkel 4y ago
  That's implied in the "your". Go ahead and be happy in your garden. But don't expect anyone else to follow along.

emodendroket 4y ago

Plus, like, OK, imagine I'm an engineer. "I don't think customers would like this feature. In fact I think it's against their interests." "We appreciate your concern, but we've judged that this feature actually benefits customers, so please implement as specified." Discussion over.

barnabee 4y ago
Quit. “I was just doing my job” stops being an excuse at some point…
- emodendroket 4y ago
  If they were ordering me to do war crimes I suppose I would but I don't think the annoyances in this article are quite at that level and I question the idea that you'll find anywhere that never makes any decisions you don't agree with.
salawat 4y ago
If Software Engineers operated at parity with other Engineering fields, the conversation could be quite different. "I will not sign off on your design as specified. Change the design, or Do Not Operate". Any attempts to implement and operate without sign off will be reported to the authorities, because the Public's Interest, and my continued licensure are more important than your empire building." At this point, I think I'll suffer the burden of licensure to keep unethical groups/impls in check.
- jbay808 4y ago
  In Canada, if you have a P. Eng, you can do that (and, in fact, must). (I don't know how many software developers have P. Engs though. The regulators try to extend the coverage of their regulation to encompass software and tech, but at the same time ignore a lot of tech companies and workers operating without license. They also tend to write rules with an implicit assumption that all engineers are working in big utilities or mining companies, making it very hard for tech workers to jump through those hoops and get licensed.) /rant