4 ms·

It's a beautiful example of the story (the "true account") bending to the gravity of desire. (The ring is a desire singularity with 1000 gravities.) That's a

It's a beautiful example of the story (the "true account") bending to the gravity of desire. (The ring is a desire singularity with 1000 gravities.) That's a big deal. I mean, the story is basically everything to us. Our whole reality. That the story is just a squishy thing that gets smashed around by desire is a very big important point. A shocking revelation. In the context of LOTR, all the narrators are now untrustworthy. Maybe things weren't so black and white. I think that's the point that's getting underlined and belabored here. Beware desire and its effects upon reality. Also, LOTR is a history. History isn't what happened. It's a story about what happened. And it's a story written by the winners. I think JRR Tolkien saw a lot of this in the war.

Zircom 4y ago
Glen Cook has an absolutely fantastic series called The Black Company where the entire series is framed as being the recorded annals of a mercenary company, with who is writing them switching occasionally between books to different characters, which let's you see the narrating character who usually writes them from a different, and sometimes less flattering, perspective. In any case, unreliable narration is obviously a big of the series, and the concept that just because something is written down doesn't mean it happened that way is pretty central, and I think it's outright brought up by the narrator at least a few times, and reading between the lines/making inferences that don't line up exactly with what is recorded is pretty much necessary to understanding the plot of the series sometimes. Cook also served for 10 years, not sure if he ever saw active combat but the series is constantly praised by veterans for it's accurate portrayal of what life in the military actually feels like.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Arrath 4y ago
  I don't see the Black Company brought up often, but it sure is a good read. I rank it akin to Malazan, though markedly different.
- thro1 4y ago
  .. and Roger Zelazany (Lord Of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness, Isle Of The Dead).. - have such distance feel of time, myths and world creation that I won't look for other worlds and tales, thanks them.
helf 4y ago
There is an alt history version of The Lord of the Rings written by a Russian author named Kirill Eskov called “The Last Ringbearer” and it is fantastic. In it, Mordor and the Orcs are a science advanced nation and the southern countries are the aggressors. It’s a great “history is written by the victor” take on the mythos. I highly recommend checking it out.
- xoxxala 4y ago
  Thanks. I sort of recommend Khraniteli, the Soviet Lord of the Rings Soviet TV movie from 1991. Delightfully bizarre in small doses but a little hard to sit through the whole thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xluxT4fj2U8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xluxT4fj2U8
- mnw21cam 4y ago
  While we're talking alternative LoTRs, it's worth having a look at The DM Of The Rings https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612 https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612 which manages to use all stills from the LoTRs films and tell a completely different story, in the same vein as Darths and Droids https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html .
- swayvil 4y ago
  I just downloaded it. Thanks :)
  - helf 4y ago
    Curious to know what you think. :D
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Well I hate it. Is history written by the victor? Maybe. But the lord of the rings is not intended to be read that way. I find it tiresome to have someone come out and say this nice fantasy story, that is not a hard deep dive on morality or political reality, is actually something entirely wrong; and to then have it implicitly suggested that if I don’t buy it that I don’t get “the point”. Our post modern society has truth written by whichever side validates your beliefs at this point. I’m not convinced that “written by the Victor” is even an accurate take.
wolverine876 4y ago
> In the context of LOTR, all the narrators are now untrustworthy. I think that's a common misunderstanding of the 'untrustworthy narrator' concept. All narrators are untrustworthy, the question is not a binary one: 100% or not. The question is how trustworthy, and where and when can we trust this narrator? Like real people, nobody is perfect - everyone tells >0 lies and >0 truth - but putting them all in the same basket is meaningless and aburd. Some are far more trustworthy than others. Tolkien was very clear that knowledge had great power (Gandalf, for example) and that deception and untrustworthiness were works of the enemy, of evil. Bilbo's lie was driven by the Ring, the ultimate corrupting evil. The protagonists, including the hobbits, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legalos, etc., were exceptionally trustworthy and took it very seriously; look at Sam's faithfulness to Frodo, for example. Boromir was depected as flawed, and ultimately broke trust and was corrupted by the Ring.

Zircom 4y ago

Glen Cook has an absolutely fantastic series called The Black Company where the entire series is framed as being the recorded annals of a mercenary company, with who is writing them switching occasionally between books to different characters, which let's you see the narrating character who usually writes them from a different, and sometimes less flattering, perspective. In any case, unreliable narration is obviously a big of the series, and the concept that just because something is written down doesn't mean it happened that way is pretty central, and I think it's outright brought up by the narrator at least a few times, and reading between the lines/making inferences that don't line up exactly with what is recorded is pretty much necessary to understanding the plot of the series sometimes. Cook also served for 10 years, not sure if he ever saw active combat but the series is constantly praised by veterans for it's accurate portrayal of what life in the military actually feels like.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Arrath 4y ago
I don't see the Black Company brought up often, but it sure is a good read. I rank it akin to Malazan, though markedly different.
thro1 4y ago
.. and Roger Zelazany (Lord Of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness, Isle Of The Dead).. - have such distance feel of time, myths and world creation that I won't look for other worlds and tales, thanks them.

helf 4y ago

There is an alt history version of The Lord of the Rings written by a Russian author named Kirill Eskov called “The Last Ringbearer” and it is fantastic. In it, Mordor and the Orcs are a science advanced nation and the southern countries are the aggressors. It’s a great “history is written by the victor” take on the mythos. I highly recommend checking it out.

xoxxala 4y ago
Thanks. I sort of recommend Khraniteli, the Soviet Lord of the Rings Soviet TV movie from 1991. Delightfully bizarre in small doses but a little hard to sit through the whole thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xluxT4fj2U8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xluxT4fj2U8
mnw21cam 4y ago
While we're talking alternative LoTRs, it's worth having a look at The DM Of The Rings https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612 https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612 which manages to use all stills from the LoTRs films and tell a completely different story, in the same vein as Darths and Droids https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html .
swayvil 4y ago
I just downloaded it. Thanks :)
- helf 4y ago
  Curious to know what you think. :D
oneoff786 4y ago
Well I hate it. Is history written by the victor? Maybe. But the lord of the rings is not intended to be read that way. I find it tiresome to have someone come out and say this nice fantasy story, that is not a hard deep dive on morality or political reality, is actually something entirely wrong; and to then have it implicitly suggested that if I don’t buy it that I don’t get “the point”. Our post modern society has truth written by whichever side validates your beliefs at this point. I’m not convinced that “written by the Victor” is even an accurate take.

wolverine876 4y ago

> In the context of LOTR, all the narrators are now untrustworthy. I think that's a common misunderstanding of the 'untrustworthy narrator' concept. All narrators are untrustworthy, the question is not a binary one: 100% or not. The question is how trustworthy, and where and when can we trust this narrator? Like real people, nobody is perfect - everyone tells >0 lies and >0 truth - but putting them all in the same basket is meaningless and aburd. Some are far more trustworthy than others. Tolkien was very clear that knowledge had great power (Gandalf, for example) and that deception and untrustworthiness were works of the enemy, of evil. Bilbo's lie was driven by the Ring, the ultimate corrupting evil. The protagonists, including the hobbits, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legalos, etc., were exceptionally trustworthy and took it very seriously; look at Sam's faithfulness to Frodo, for example. Boromir was depected as flawed, and ultimately broke trust and was corrupted by the Ring.