5 ms·

Pope warns Vatican staff an ‘elegant demon’ lurks among them

40 points by cwwc 4y ago

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
In another life I was a practicing Catholic and if you haven't, the book of Revelation is an actually interesting sci-fi post-apocolyptic fan fic, especially the dramatized renditions like the Left Behind book series (movies are terrible). Revelation describes the anti-christ in a similar fashion. Is the Pope implying Lucifer has returned? I wonder if the Vatican even takes Revelation as true dogma in practice too, since it is somewhat off-the-wall.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Not really religious these days, but I concur about the Left Behind books. Fascinating interpretation of the end times story, placing it firmly in today's world. I still remember how it described dealing with "boiling seas" plague, how the main character captured condensation from the AC unit to survive. In all the "sci-fi" I've read through the years, there aren't many stories that stick with me like that did.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Seems unlikely. The notion of rapture as commonly concieved of is in conflict with the amilennial doctrine of the catholic church. Any pope would be very well aware that dispensationalism/premillennialism is a mostly modern American idea. [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20060513181209/http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20060513181209/http://www.cathol...
- krapp 4y ago
  > Revelation describes the anti-christ in a similar fashion. Is the Pope implying Lucifer has returned? The article clearly explains what the Pope is talking about and no, that isn't it.
  - halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
    He's quoted saying "...because we are beset by the ‘elegant demon,’ who does not make a loud entrance, but comes with flowers in his hand". Sure you could take this as metaphorical but it's also, almost verbatim, the opening act of Satan's return to Earth. Idk it's more interesting rhetoric and at the end of the day, arguing semantics than anything, speaking as a non-believer.
hairofadog 4y ago
The headline makes it sound like he believes there's a mole within the Vatican, but reading the article it sounds like he means that there's an "elegant demon" living within each of us that may tempt us to judge others too harshly.
- xwdv 4y ago
  I know this is what he meant, but I wanted to believe it was indeed a mole. It would have been much more exciting, like a Catholic themed version of Among Us.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > It would have been much more exciting, like a Catholic themed version of Among Us. Do you want the Spanish Inquisition? That's how you get the Spanish Inquisition.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The headline makes it sound like he believes there's a mole within the Vatican Not a problem Francis is unfamiliar with, though his predecessor was more directly affected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal
type0 4y ago
'Elegant demon' lurks there all right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
hcmacro 4y ago
Headline is clickbait tbf
calibas 4y ago
He's talking about religious hubris, not an actual demon.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  That this needed to be said on HN speaks volumes to how shallow we are.
  - Fezzik 4y ago
    Does the Catholic Church not still practice exorcisms and a belief that demonic possession is a real thing? Last I checked, they do… I think a reasonable person, who is somewhat familiar with the centuries of ridiculous proclamations of the Catholic Church, would not be unreasonable in thinking it was reference to a real (imaginary) demon.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I think they would be unreasonable. A reasonable person familiar with the church would know that 99.9% the talk of demons is metaphor and analogy these days.
      - trillic 4y ago
        Fear of demons, fear of God, fear of what happens after death, fear of having a thought which may be construed as dissent or heresy, fear of speaking out against their fellow church leaders for pedophilic behaviors. The Catholic church is all about fear as a form of control.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I'm not a Catholic but I've been to a number of services and that is not my experience. Not saying those things haven't happened, but I don't think claiming that they are 99.9% is honest conversation. Maybe you should look at what elegant demons you have embraced, as we all should
4b11b4 4y ago
The Pope sounds wise, but yes, title leads me to think there is a mole.
leet_thow 4y ago
That you Catholic church for providing us a modern day example of how people in the middle ages thought.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  A lot more enlightened than we give them credit for? Perhaps more enlightened than we are today?
  - mdanger007 4y ago
    I wonder how much "modern thinking" leads us to repeat mistakes of the past. (Dostoyevsky certainly thought it did).
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  The Pope is talking about this guy: https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pavone-s-dismissal-could-have-been-avoided https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pavone-s-dismissal-c.... As an outsider, I see the Church as moving away from the middle ages by degrees.
jfengel 4y ago
Primary source: https://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/2022-12/ing-051/in-need-of-conversion.html https://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/2022-12/ing-051/in-... With some context: Our initial conversion follows a certain pattern: the evil that we acknowledge and try to uproot from our lives does indeed leave us, but we would be naïve to think that it will long be gone. In short order, it comes back under a new guise. Before, it appeared rough and violent, now it shows up as elegant and refined. We need to realize that and once again to unmask it. Let me put it this way: they are “elegant demons”: they enter smoothly, without our even being conscious of them. Only the daily practice of the examination of conscience can enable us to be aware of them. [EDIT: the reason I can't reconcile the next bit is because I was confused. Ignore it.] The next paragraph cites a nun who became a heretic (on a rather abstruse piece of doctrine). That's really a problem in that she was a TV personality, for a group of conservative Catholics who push a culture-war approach that often puts them at odds with the Vatican, especially the comparatively liberal Francis. And I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that. I'm quite certain that Mother Angelica did examine her conscience quite closely. In many ways Mother Angelica was quite inelegant, and rather outspoken. Perhaps she was listening too closely to an "elegant demon", but I'm not sure if any amount of introspection would have revealed flaws to her.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  > In the seventeenth century, for example, there was the well-known case of the nuns of Port Royal. One of their abbesses, Mother Angelica,... I'm having a hard time reconciling XVII with "TV personality", unless you mean this is a veiled reference to a different, XXI, personality? Apparently the introspection that would have revealed the flaws is directly quoted: “pure as angels and proud as demons”. A little introspection might have suggested that Pride was not in keeping with her confession. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Christian_seven_virtues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Christian_se...
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Yep, I conflated it with somebody else. Thanks; I've pointed that out in my original post.
neilv 4y ago
For anyone not aware, this is standard stuff for many Catholic parishes. Every blessed Sunday, in addition to the other Mass rituals, the content is a few readings from the Bible, capped by a homily (a lecture the priest has written) about how to improve as people, or to do some good. (Not that I'm advocating Catholicism or any other kind of organized religion. Just mentioning it because I know a lot of people weren't brought up in a tradition like that, and the external news is going to give a distorted picture. Just like a lot of people brought up sheltered in a religion have a distorted idea of people not in that one. This gap of understanding can be funny, in that you have a lot of, say, Christians and secular liberals, who're suspicious and critical of each other, when in some respects they have especially strong overlap of values, such as helping those less fortunate. Recognizing those overlaps seems like it might help speed up finding more common ground on the actual differences -- of which there are some whoppers, but there's slow progress.)

40 points by cwwc 4y ago

In another life I was a practicing Catholic and if you haven't, the book of Revelation is an actually interesting sci-fi post-apocolyptic fan fic, especially the dramatized renditions like the Left Behind book series (movies are terrible). Revelation describes the anti-christ in a similar fashion. Is the Pope implying Lucifer has returned? I wonder if the Vatican even takes Revelation as true dogma in practice too, since it is somewhat off-the-wall.

bdcravens 4y ago
Not really religious these days, but I concur about the Left Behind books. Fascinating interpretation of the end times story, placing it firmly in today's world. I still remember how it described dealing with "boiling seas" plague, how the main character captured condensation from the AC unit to survive. In all the "sci-fi" I've read through the years, there aren't many stories that stick with me like that did.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
Seems unlikely. The notion of rapture as commonly concieved of is in conflict with the amilennial doctrine of the catholic church. Any pope would be very well aware that dispensationalism/premillennialism is a mostly modern American idea. [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20060513181209/http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp https://web.archive.org/web/20060513181209/http://www.cathol...
krapp 4y ago
> Revelation describes the anti-christ in a similar fashion. Is the Pope implying Lucifer has returned? The article clearly explains what the Pope is talking about and no, that isn't it.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  He's quoted saying "...because we are beset by the ‘elegant demon,’ who does not make a loud entrance, but comes with flowers in his hand". Sure you could take this as metaphorical but it's also, almost verbatim, the opening act of Satan's return to Earth. Idk it's more interesting rhetoric and at the end of the day, arguing semantics than anything, speaking as a non-believer.

hairofadog 4y ago

The headline makes it sound like he believes there's a mole within the Vatican, but reading the article it sounds like he means that there's an "elegant demon" living within each of us that may tempt us to judge others too harshly.

xwdv 4y ago
I know this is what he meant, but I wanted to believe it was indeed a mole. It would have been much more exciting, like a Catholic themed version of Among Us.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > It would have been much more exciting, like a Catholic themed version of Among Us. Do you want the Spanish Inquisition? That's how you get the Spanish Inquisition.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> The headline makes it sound like he believes there's a mole within the Vatican Not a problem Francis is unfamiliar with, though his predecessor was more directly affected. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_leaks_scandal

type0 4y ago

'Elegant demon' lurks there all right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k

hcmacro 4y ago

Headline is clickbait tbf

calibas 4y ago

He's talking about religious hubris, not an actual demon.

rootusrootus 4y ago
That this needed to be said on HN speaks volumes to how shallow we are.
- Fezzik 4y ago
  Does the Catholic Church not still practice exorcisms and a belief that demonic possession is a real thing? Last I checked, they do… I think a reasonable person, who is somewhat familiar with the centuries of ridiculous proclamations of the Catholic Church, would not be unreasonable in thinking it was reference to a real (imaginary) demon.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I think they would be unreasonable. A reasonable person familiar with the church would know that 99.9% the talk of demons is metaphor and analogy these days.
    - trillic 4y ago
      Fear of demons, fear of God, fear of what happens after death, fear of having a thought which may be construed as dissent or heresy, fear of speaking out against their fellow church leaders for pedophilic behaviors. The Catholic church is all about fear as a form of control.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I'm not a Catholic but I've been to a number of services and that is not my experience. Not saying those things haven't happened, but I don't think claiming that they are 99.9% is honest conversation. Maybe you should look at what elegant demons you have embraced, as we all should

4b11b4 4y ago

The Pope sounds wise, but yes, title leads me to think there is a mole.

leet_thow 4y ago

That you Catholic church for providing us a modern day example of how people in the middle ages thought.

rootusrootus 4y ago
A lot more enlightened than we give them credit for? Perhaps more enlightened than we are today?
- mdanger007 4y ago
  I wonder how much "modern thinking" leads us to repeat mistakes of the past. (Dostoyevsky certainly thought it did).
lern_too_spel 4y ago
The Pope is talking about this guy: https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pavone-s-dismissal-could-have-been-avoided https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries/pavone-s-dismissal-c.... As an outsider, I see the Church as moving away from the middle ages by degrees.

jfengel 4y ago

Primary source: https://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/2022-12/ing-051/in-need-of-conversion.html https://www.osservatoreromano.va/en/news/2022-12/ing-051/in-... With some context: Our initial conversion follows a certain pattern: the evil that we acknowledge and try to uproot from our lives does indeed leave us, but we would be naïve to think that it will long be gone. In short order, it comes back under a new guise. Before, it appeared rough and violent, now it shows up as elegant and refined. We need to realize that and once again to unmask it. Let me put it this way: they are “elegant demons”: they enter smoothly, without our even being conscious of them. Only the daily practice of the examination of conscience can enable us to be aware of them. [EDIT: the reason I can't reconcile the next bit is because I was confused. Ignore it.] The next paragraph cites a nun who became a heretic (on a rather abstruse piece of doctrine). That's really a problem in that she was a TV personality, for a group of conservative Catholics who push a culture-war approach that often puts them at odds with the Vatican, especially the comparatively liberal Francis. And I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that. I'm quite certain that Mother Angelica did examine her conscience quite closely. In many ways Mother Angelica was quite inelegant, and rather outspoken. Perhaps she was listening too closely to an "elegant demon", but I'm not sure if any amount of introspection would have revealed flaws to her.

082349872349872 4y ago
> In the seventeenth century, for example, there was the well-known case of the nuns of Port Royal. One of their abbesses, Mother Angelica,... I'm having a hard time reconciling XVII with "TV personality", unless you mean this is a veiled reference to a different, XXI, personality? Apparently the introspection that would have revealed the flaws is directly quoted: “pure as angels and proud as demons”. A little introspection might have suggested that Pride was not in keeping with her confession. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Christian_seven_virtues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#Christian_se...
- jfengel 4y ago
  Yep, I conflated it with somebody else. Thanks; I've pointed that out in my original post.

neilv 4y ago

For anyone not aware, this is standard stuff for many Catholic parishes. Every blessed Sunday, in addition to the other Mass rituals, the content is a few readings from the Bible, capped by a homily (a lecture the priest has written) about how to improve as people, or to do some good. (Not that I'm advocating Catholicism or any other kind of organized religion. Just mentioning it because I know a lot of people weren't brought up in a tradition like that, and the external news is going to give a distorted picture. Just like a lot of people brought up sheltered in a religion have a distorted idea of people not in that one. This gap of understanding can be funny, in that you have a lot of, say, Christians and secular liberals, who're suspicious and critical of each other, when in some respects they have especially strong overlap of values, such as helping those less fortunate. Recognizing those overlaps seems like it might help speed up finding more common ground on the actual differences -- of which there are some whoppers, but there's slow progress.)