5 ms·

I think what you are doing is wrong. You shouldn't judge a person based on a single essay. Whatever you think about this particular essay, it's not deserving of

by ugh 15y ago

I think what you are doing is wrong. You shouldn't judge a person based on a single essay. Whatever you think about this particular essay, it's not deserving of this witchhunt. Edit: He should have failed the class and received a stern talking to. There is a reason students are told not to quote from homework assignments of other students. The bachelor thesis or master thesis is the first proper scientific work any student does and if you plagarize in those an instant gameover is expected and deserved. But class homework? Certainly not.

danso 15y ago
Unbelievable. HN is inundated with threads talking about how useless a college degree is. And now we have people trying to defend what appears to be an incredibly pathetic act of plagiarism. This isn't a case of someone copying and pasting and forgetting to put in quotes. This is an act of apparent extreme brain atrophy...he had to WORK to copy this moronic essay and to alter it in a superficial way from the original, all the while having no ability to tell parody from truth. And you want to give this person a mulligan, as if this kind of act has no bearing on ehat you would consider his puported "real" work? Jesus, our society really is heading towards Idiocracy?
- ugh 15y ago
  I don’t understand your lack of empathy. I agree: It’s a pathetic act of plagiarism and he should fail the class for it. If he didn’t, then his teachers made a serious mistake. If he could get away with it, then that’s pretty fucked up. If this is a one time thing I see no reason not to forgive it after he has failed the class. And if it’s not a one time thing he would fail classes all the time and he wouldn’t be able to get a degree anyway. That’s assuming his teachers are competent. That’s all I’m saying.
  - DanBC 15y ago
    If it was just a one time thing (caused by some traumatic event in his personal life) then sure, it was stupid but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. People do weird things when they're stressed, and sometimes those things are not just weird but bad. But, now he's been caught cheating the once, maybe his other work needs to get a little bit more scrutiny? And maybe his tutors need a bit of support to catch and punish those who cheat? (I've read up-thread about the reasons why punishing for plagiarism is hard). Some people are saying this essay is ridiculous. I know very little about history or the Magna Carta (I'm English; we don't care about that any more) so I have no idea if it's just bad, or really awful. I really want to know how would it compare to honest papers from his colleagues, or to a great paper from someone at that level?
    - tankenmate 15y ago
      Although large sections of the Magna Carta have been repealed over the larger part of a millenia, it could be easily argued that the most important parts of the Magna Carta Act are the ones that are still in force. To be English and say that you don't care about the Magna Carta Act is almost tantamount to saying that you don't care about justice; maybe that is your point. The Magna Carta was the point at which England ceased to be a despotism; an absolute monarchy. If the Magna Carta was to be fully repealed without legislation that was morally equivalent to replace it, the justice system in England, and probably the rest of the UK, would come to a halt.
      - DanBC 15y ago
        England has detention without charge, let alone trial. It starts with 14 days, but extends to 28 days. People keep wanting to push it to longer; 48 days and 90 days are commonly heard desires. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/10/terrorism.uksecurity1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/10/terrorism.uks...) There's a whole bunch of stuff under counter-terrorism law that pretty much tramples over Magna Carta rights.
        tankenmate 15y ago
        I think you might be thinking of Habeas Corpus, which came about in part through common law and later in the form of the Habeas Corpus Act, some 400 years later than the Magna Carta Act. The most important part of the Magna Carta Act is the guarantee that you will be tried by your peers. In civil cases at the moment in the UK there is a strong resistance to have secret evidence even though the current Justice Minister suggests that some evidence should be withheld from the accused! So common law cases, like Habeas Corpus actions, are still tried in front of your peers with open evidence. This may change if Ken Clarke, and according to some accounts lobbying from the US CIA, have their way.
beloch 15y ago
In an ideal world plagiarists would always be caught and always be failed. No need for dire consequences. Just no rewards. In the real world, most plagiarists are never punished even if they are caught. If you're a TA or prof and you think you've been given plagiarized work, you need to have iron-clad proof before you can even think about breathing the 'P' word. You can easily wind up in as much trouble as the student if your proof isn't solid! You have very little to go on if the student is at least smart enough to paraphrase and avoid copy/pasting complete sentences. I've been given work I was 99% sure was plagiarized but, since I couldn't prove it, I couldn't do anything more than give it a low grade. Even when you can prove plagiarism has occurred, you're in for a lot of extra work. Usually it's easier to just talk to the student and tell them to withdraw from your class. Since plagiarists are so hard to catch and punish, it's important to make examples of the ones who are caught. You can argue that this was "just class homework", but students who plagiarize homework are the same ones who hire ghost-writers to do a one-off term paper or thesis for them. If they can get by without doing the unimportant work, odds are they won't learn how to do the important work. In this case, absolutely make this kid's life hell. It doesn't matter if he only cheated that one time or if that's how he got his entire degree. What's important is that other students see that plagiarism can come back to haunt them long after they've gotten their degrees. The student's profs ought to be made to sweat a little too. Missing or failing to punish plagiarism is entirely forgivable for the reasons I have stated above. Giving a passing grade to an obvious joke paper shows that they were negligent, and that's another matter entirely.
- ugh 15y ago
  Have empathy man. Empathy.
  - beloch 15y ago
    I have empathy for the millions of students who get through university (or college) on the basis of their own abilities and hard work. These are the people who truly deserve it!
    - ugh 15y ago
pnmahoney 15y ago
Edit: totally out of line, my apologies. I'll just stick with saying that it's absurd to say (as implied above) that "class homework" isn't _really_ plagiarism.
- ugh 15y ago
  The academic reaction should be failed class. I’m no native speaker. It really is this particular essay: We don’t have any evidence whatsoever for other plagiarized essays. Plagiarism in class homework is still plagiarism and pathetic. I never said otherwise. I can’t believe I’m responding to you. I really can’t. Plagiarism is very disgusting but libel is, too. Edit: And if you knew anything about me you would know that I would rather kill myself before typesetting anything I make like that.
philwelch 15y ago
Witch hunts are characterized by the indiscriminate targeting of mass amounts of people who may not be guilty of anything wrong. This is a well deserved public shaming of named individuals.

by ugh 15y ago

danso 15y ago

Unbelievable. HN is inundated with threads talking about how useless a college degree is. And now we have people trying to defend what appears to be an incredibly pathetic act of plagiarism. This isn't a case of someone copying and pasting and forgetting to put in quotes. This is an act of apparent extreme brain atrophy...he had to WORK to copy this moronic essay and to alter it in a superficial way from the original, all the while having no ability to tell parody from truth. And you want to give this person a mulligan, as if this kind of act has no bearing on ehat you would consider his puported "real" work? Jesus, our society really is heading towards Idiocracy?

ugh 15y ago
I don’t understand your lack of empathy. I agree: It’s a pathetic act of plagiarism and he should fail the class for it. If he didn’t, then his teachers made a serious mistake. If he could get away with it, then that’s pretty fucked up. If this is a one time thing I see no reason not to forgive it after he has failed the class. And if it’s not a one time thing he would fail classes all the time and he wouldn’t be able to get a degree anyway. That’s assuming his teachers are competent. That’s all I’m saying.
- DanBC 15y ago
  If it was just a one time thing (caused by some traumatic event in his personal life) then sure, it was stupid but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. People do weird things when they're stressed, and sometimes those things are not just weird but bad. But, now he's been caught cheating the once, maybe his other work needs to get a little bit more scrutiny? And maybe his tutors need a bit of support to catch and punish those who cheat? (I've read up-thread about the reasons why punishing for plagiarism is hard). Some people are saying this essay is ridiculous. I know very little about history or the Magna Carta (I'm English; we don't care about that any more) so I have no idea if it's just bad, or really awful. I really want to know how would it compare to honest papers from his colleagues, or to a great paper from someone at that level?
  - tankenmate 15y ago
    Although large sections of the Magna Carta have been repealed over the larger part of a millenia, it could be easily argued that the most important parts of the Magna Carta Act are the ones that are still in force. To be English and say that you don't care about the Magna Carta Act is almost tantamount to saying that you don't care about justice; maybe that is your point. The Magna Carta was the point at which England ceased to be a despotism; an absolute monarchy. If the Magna Carta was to be fully repealed without legislation that was morally equivalent to replace it, the justice system in England, and probably the rest of the UK, would come to a halt.
    - DanBC 15y ago
      England has detention without charge, let alone trial. It starts with 14 days, but extends to 28 days. People keep wanting to push it to longer; 48 days and 90 days are commonly heard desires. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/10/terrorism.uksecurity1?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/10/terrorism.uks...) There's a whole bunch of stuff under counter-terrorism law that pretty much tramples over Magna Carta rights.
      - tankenmate 15y ago
        I think you might be thinking of Habeas Corpus, which came about in part through common law and later in the form of the Habeas Corpus Act, some 400 years later than the Magna Carta Act. The most important part of the Magna Carta Act is the guarantee that you will be tried by your peers. In civil cases at the moment in the UK there is a strong resistance to have secret evidence even though the current Justice Minister suggests that some evidence should be withheld from the accused! So common law cases, like Habeas Corpus actions, are still tried in front of your peers with open evidence. This may change if Ken Clarke, and according to some accounts lobbying from the US CIA, have their way.

beloch 15y ago

In an ideal world plagiarists would always be caught and always be failed. No need for dire consequences. Just no rewards. In the real world, most plagiarists are never punished even if they are caught. If you're a TA or prof and you think you've been given plagiarized work, you need to have iron-clad proof before you can even think about breathing the 'P' word. You can easily wind up in as much trouble as the student if your proof isn't solid! You have very little to go on if the student is at least smart enough to paraphrase and avoid copy/pasting complete sentences. I've been given work I was 99% sure was plagiarized but, since I couldn't prove it, I couldn't do anything more than give it a low grade. Even when you can prove plagiarism has occurred, you're in for a lot of extra work. Usually it's easier to just talk to the student and tell them to withdraw from your class. Since plagiarists are so hard to catch and punish, it's important to make examples of the ones who are caught. You can argue that this was "just class homework", but students who plagiarize homework are the same ones who hire ghost-writers to do a one-off term paper or thesis for them. If they can get by without doing the unimportant work, odds are they won't learn how to do the important work. In this case, absolutely make this kid's life hell. It doesn't matter if he only cheated that one time or if that's how he got his entire degree. What's important is that other students see that plagiarism can come back to haunt them long after they've gotten their degrees. The student's profs ought to be made to sweat a little too. Missing or failing to punish plagiarism is entirely forgivable for the reasons I have stated above. Giving a passing grade to an obvious joke paper shows that they were negligent, and that's another matter entirely.

ugh 15y ago
Have empathy man. Empathy.
- beloch 15y ago
  I have empathy for the millions of students who get through university (or college) on the basis of their own abilities and hard work. These are the people who truly deserve it!
  - ugh 15y ago

pnmahoney 15y ago

Edit: totally out of line, my apologies. I'll just stick with saying that it's absurd to say (as implied above) that "class homework" isn't _really_ plagiarism.

ugh 15y ago
The academic reaction should be failed class. I’m no native speaker. It really is this particular essay: We don’t have any evidence whatsoever for other plagiarized essays. Plagiarism in class homework is still plagiarism and pathetic. I never said otherwise. I can’t believe I’m responding to you. I really can’t. Plagiarism is very disgusting but libel is, too. Edit: And if you knew anything about me you would know that I would rather kill myself before typesetting anything I make like that.

philwelch 15y ago

Witch hunts are characterized by the indiscriminate targeting of mass amounts of people who may not be guilty of anything wrong. This is a well deserved public shaming of named individuals.