6 ms·

Can confirm. Lived a very frugal early retirement lifestyle in Austria because it was practically impossible to build wealth (high taxes, comparatively very low

Can confirm. Lived a very frugal early retirement lifestyle in Austria because it was practically impossible to build wealth (high taxes, comparatively very low tech salaries, little entrepreneurial support/incentives). Moving to the US I was able to 5-6x my income (from what I could have realistically made) , while reducing my tax burden by 15 percentage points, and so I've been happily living a workaholics' lifestyle since. Looking back, it really boggles my mind how much engineering potential is squandered in Europe. You'd have to be an idiot to want to work hard given how raw of a deal you are getting (work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke!) and people understand that intuitively (hence pushing for ever fewer work hours or even days because what else is there if your salary is essentially capped and you quickly hit a 50 % tax rate (when combining income tax and social security) for every additional hour worked). </rant>

uffndnjfncnc 4y ago
[flagged]
sph 4y ago
Not all of Europe runs on a 50% tax rate though. My tax rate as company director in the United Kingdom is somewhere around 25%, and I can afford higher salaries than the rest of Europe while still enjoying the basic safety net of public health care. But I'm originally from Italy, and the tax rate is exorbitant down there as well, with ridiculously low salaries. You do you, but there is more to life than gross income from your employer. This is why I'd rather stay in this continent.
washmyelbows 4y ago
I'll be lucky if I can afford a single family home after 20 years of software engineering in the US. halfway there now, we'll see. Moving to a senior position has helped but I feel like a lot of people forget that the compensation in SV is not normal in other places.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  SV is an outlier in both income and housing costs. Here in DC metro, a mid-career developer should be able to afford a home without much trouble. Many of the best jobs are well outside the city (Tysons to Ashburn corridor) where housing costs aren’t terrible.
rpadovani 4y ago
> (work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke!) I really don't understand this take. Why so many engineers feel entitled to have more than the average working Joe? If you are employed, our work is not risky, doesn't consume all your energy or your time, and so on. I fully understand the _economics_ behind our salaries, but I am more than happy to give 45% of it to the society as a whole, so also who cannot afford the economy of scale (e.g., nurses, teachers), can still have a decent life. I really cannot grasp the individualism about "I know how to write code, I deserve a better life than 95% of the population".
- uffndnjfncnc 4y ago
  The average Joe in American can earn many times more than an engineer in the EU
  - ricardobeat 4y ago
    The average Joe in the US earns $60-70k, same as an average software engineer in the EU. The difference is not that US workers earn more on average, but that being an engineer doesn’t make you automatically rich in Europe like it does in tbe USA.
- caterpi11ar 4y ago
  > I really cannot grasp the individualism about "I know how to write code, I deserve a better life than 95% of the population". What if we worded this in a different way: "I have a skill which is more in demand than the skills of 95% of the population"
  - rpadovani 4y ago
    And this is why I say that I understand the economics behind it. Still, it doesn't mean I _deserve_ a high salary: I totally get why I get it, but I don't work harder, or studied harder, or really did anything more special than 95% of the population. So, while I am able to earn more, I am happy to share part of it with the society as a whole, and this is why I am happy about my level of taxes, compared to the services provided. There are wastes? Of course there are! So many! But the solution to "governments waste money" is not "less money to the governments", is "more accountability". This is of course my view of the world, but I still haven't found anybody that explains why my job deserves to be in the top 5% earner in my country, apart from being just a consequence of the fact that my job scales to billions of users due its very nature (that is completely inconsequential from the choices I have made), while other jobs have physical limits and they don't scale.
morjom 4y ago
>You'd have to be an idiot to want to work hard given how raw of a deal you are getting Yeah sorry I can't fly to another country because I'm not satisfied with -only- a family home.
jll29 4y ago
I agree with your point about Europe squandering engineering talent. Overall, it's a trade-off, though. You are right about the US opportunities, but there are downsides, too: - crime (you get crime everywhere, but the US has a particularly and unnecessarily high level of serious crime like gun crime - e.g. school shootings happen pretty regularly); - not everyone has good healthcare & social services (I am aware you will not personally be exposed to that, as you will have private healthcare; but it even bothers me if people around me are ill and cannot afford to get cured. I don't want to live somewhere where I can get a regular check at the Mayo clinic and my neighbor cannot afford their emergency dentist); - low average education level (people generally don't know much of the world, history, literature). - cultural life (theater, classical music etc.) is very uneven distributed. Also, US taxation isn't that low in general, it dramatically depends on the state you live in (TX 0% state tax versus NY, MN etc. >40%). There are places in Europe that have small tax rates (CH, LU), but they are not the best places to live for everybody. Everyone needs to weigh their priorities and match with the overall "package" (e.g. Canada is a good compromise: near-US salaries but Europe-like education of the general public) - and in any case, not everyone is free to leave where they currently reside. Austria in particular has rather low salaries (but also low rents) - but places like Vienna have a magic feel to it that just doesn't exist on other continents. In comparison, in neighboring Switzerland are very high (anyone with a tech Master's degree would be on a six digits salary), but with a huge salary gap between locals and expats for doing the same job. (I have lived in the UK, US, CH and DE.)
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  All the problems you listed as US-specific problems exist in my corner of Europe too, except gun violence. And on top of that we have fewer jobs, lower salaries, higher taxes and high unemployment. I love Europe: its history, its music, its art, its architecture, its legacy - yes! the good and the bad -, its food, its cultures. But from my point of view we are killing ourselves, choked in an endless decay, metastasizing bureaucracy, and never-ending hopelessness. I'm sure the Nordic Country are happy though, and that's the problem: American tend to compare the worst of their country with the best of our continent.
  - 4y ago
annyeonghada 4y ago
>work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke! If you're lucky. The salaries in my country are so abysmal that nobody in my generation can buy a house: the only one with houses inherited them or have rich parents.
Annatar 4y ago
[dead]
moooo99 4y ago
I feel like this is somewhat misguided > and so o I've been happily living a workaholics' lifestyle since. That is one key aspect. I'm not a workaholic and most other people aren't either. I do somewhat enjoy my work, but I work to pay for my live, not the other way around. I make a decent salary and work 35h/week with 36 days of vacation. I do pay a lot of taxes, but I live in a city with pretty good and affordable public transit, I got my university education for free (okay, I admit, I paid a total of 600€ for my bachelors), etc. In a well governed country, you don't only pay taxes but also receive something in return. > work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke! This isn't necessarily a result of high taxes, its also a result of Europe being much denser populated than the US (or Australia), limiting the supply side for construction land. The kind of the construction also plays a role, the average newly built European home is substantially more solidly constructed than the reference in the US. > hence pushing for ever fewer work hours or even days because what else is there if your salary is essentially capped Have you ever considered that many people would much rather have more free time than more money? Beyond a certain level, increased income doesn't correlate with increased happiness/wellbeing. Where this level is certainly depends, but it is much lower than many people anticipate.

uffndnjfncnc 4y ago

[flagged]

sph 4y ago

Not all of Europe runs on a 50% tax rate though. My tax rate as company director in the United Kingdom is somewhere around 25%, and I can afford higher salaries than the rest of Europe while still enjoying the basic safety net of public health care. But I'm originally from Italy, and the tax rate is exorbitant down there as well, with ridiculously low salaries. You do you, but there is more to life than gross income from your employer. This is why I'd rather stay in this continent.

washmyelbows 4y ago

I'll be lucky if I can afford a single family home after 20 years of software engineering in the US. halfway there now, we'll see. Moving to a senior position has helped but I feel like a lot of people forget that the compensation in SV is not normal in other places.

alistairSH 4y ago
SV is an outlier in both income and housing costs. Here in DC metro, a mid-career developer should be able to afford a home without much trouble. Many of the best jobs are well outside the city (Tysons to Ashburn corridor) where housing costs aren’t terrible.

rpadovani 4y ago

> (work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke!) I really don't understand this take. Why so many engineers feel entitled to have more than the average working Joe? If you are employed, our work is not risky, doesn't consume all your energy or your time, and so on. I fully understand the _economics_ behind our salaries, but I am more than happy to give 45% of it to the society as a whole, so also who cannot afford the economy of scale (e.g., nurses, teachers), can still have a decent life. I really cannot grasp the individualism about "I know how to write code, I deserve a better life than 95% of the population".

uffndnjfncnc 4y ago
The average Joe in American can earn many times more than an engineer in the EU
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  The average Joe in the US earns $60-70k, same as an average software engineer in the EU. The difference is not that US workers earn more on average, but that being an engineer doesn’t make you automatically rich in Europe like it does in tbe USA.
caterpi11ar 4y ago
> I really cannot grasp the individualism about "I know how to write code, I deserve a better life than 95% of the population". What if we worded this in a different way: "I have a skill which is more in demand than the skills of 95% of the population"
- rpadovani 4y ago
  And this is why I say that I understand the economics behind it. Still, it doesn't mean I _deserve_ a high salary: I totally get why I get it, but I don't work harder, or studied harder, or really did anything more special than 95% of the population. So, while I am able to earn more, I am happy to share part of it with the society as a whole, and this is why I am happy about my level of taxes, compared to the services provided. There are wastes? Of course there are! So many! But the solution to "governments waste money" is not "less money to the governments", is "more accountability". This is of course my view of the world, but I still haven't found anybody that explains why my job deserves to be in the top 5% earner in my country, apart from being just a consequence of the fact that my job scales to billions of users due its very nature (that is completely inconsequential from the choices I have made), while other jobs have physical limits and they don't scale.

morjom 4y ago

>You'd have to be an idiot to want to work hard given how raw of a deal you are getting Yeah sorry I can't fly to another country because I'm not satisfied with -only- a family home.

jll29 4y ago

I agree with your point about Europe squandering engineering talent. Overall, it's a trade-off, though. You are right about the US opportunities, but there are downsides, too: - crime (you get crime everywhere, but the US has a particularly and unnecessarily high level of serious crime like gun crime - e.g. school shootings happen pretty regularly); - not everyone has good healthcare & social services (I am aware you will not personally be exposed to that, as you will have private healthcare; but it even bothers me if people around me are ill and cannot afford to get cured. I don't want to live somewhere where I can get a regular check at the Mayo clinic and my neighbor cannot afford their emergency dentist); - low average education level (people generally don't know much of the world, history, literature). - cultural life (theater, classical music etc.) is very uneven distributed. Also, US taxation isn't that low in general, it dramatically depends on the state you live in (TX 0% state tax versus NY, MN etc. >40%). There are places in Europe that have small tax rates (CH, LU), but they are not the best places to live for everybody. Everyone needs to weigh their priorities and match with the overall "package" (e.g. Canada is a good compromise: near-US salaries but Europe-like education of the general public) - and in any case, not everyone is free to leave where they currently reside. Austria in particular has rather low salaries (but also low rents) - but places like Vienna have a magic feel to it that just doesn't exist on other continents. In comparison, in neighboring Switzerland are very high (anyone with a tech Master's degree would be on a six digits salary), but with a huge salary gap between locals and expats for doing the same job. (I have lived in the UK, US, CH and DE.)

annyeonghada 4y ago
All the problems you listed as US-specific problems exist in my corner of Europe too, except gun violence. And on top of that we have fewer jobs, lower salaries, higher taxes and high unemployment. I love Europe: its history, its music, its art, its architecture, its legacy - yes! the good and the bad -, its food, its cultures. But from my point of view we are killing ourselves, choked in an endless decay, metastasizing bureaucracy, and never-ending hopelessness. I'm sure the Nordic Country are happy though, and that's the problem: American tend to compare the worst of their country with the best of our continent.
- 4y ago

annyeonghada 4y ago

>work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke! If you're lucky. The salaries in my country are so abysmal that nobody in my generation can buy a house: the only one with houses inherited them or have rich parents.

Annatar 4y ago

[dead]

moooo99 4y ago

I feel like this is somewhat misguided > and so o I've been happily living a workaholics' lifestyle since. That is one key aspect. I'm not a workaholic and most other people aren't either. I do somewhat enjoy my work, but I work to pay for my live, not the other way around. I make a decent salary and work 35h/week with 36 days of vacation. I do pay a lot of taxes, but I live in a city with pretty good and affordable public transit, I got my university education for free (okay, I admit, I paid a total of 600€ for my bachelors), etc. In a well governed country, you don't only pay taxes but also receive something in return. > work for almost 2 decades as an engineer just so you can afford the average one family home - what a joke! This isn't necessarily a result of high taxes, its also a result of Europe being much denser populated than the US (or Australia), limiting the supply side for construction land. The kind of the construction also plays a role, the average newly built European home is substantially more solidly constructed than the reference in the US. > hence pushing for ever fewer work hours or even days because what else is there if your salary is essentially capped Have you ever considered that many people would much rather have more free time than more money? Beyond a certain level, increased income doesn't correlate with increased happiness/wellbeing. Where this level is certainly depends, but it is much lower than many people anticipate.