5 ms·

English is a second language for me. It feels like this list is there to avoid newspeak / bullshit / being unnecessarily abstract. It seems like rephrasing wit

by jraph 4y ago

English is a second language for me. It feels like this list is there to avoid newspeak / bullshit / being unnecessarily abstract. It seems like rephrasing with the replacement of many of these terms can make you think again and check that you aren't bullshitting a bit. "progress" => "Are we indeed actually working on this?" I'll certainly consult this list in the future to check my writing for simplicity.

Aardwolf 4y ago
The list also looks useful to "translate" existing corpspeak. But on the other hand, it can be misused as well by reversing the left and right sides...
PreInternet01 4y ago
You might also enjoy "Misused English words and expressions in EU publications": https://www.eca.europa.eu/Other%20publications/EN_TERMINOLOGY_PUBLICATION/EN_TERMINOLOGY_PUBLICATION.pdf https://www.eca.europa.eu/Other%20publications/EN_TERMINOLOG...
- Vinnl 4y ago
  Thank you! I saw that years ago and have wanted to reference it on several occasions, but never was able to find it again.
- jraph 4y ago
  I love this. In particular because I was once very close to someone working in some UE-related organization in Brussels. They routinely complained about the EU having its own English, mentioning the use of "persons" where "people" would be more correct. This use is not mentioned in this publication, maybe "persons" is actually fine-ish. I can see how many of these mistakes could come from the French language. Ah ah. Whoops. Sorry! :-) For instance, "foresee" used to mean "plan" where it really means "predict". I never made the mistake because I never made the connection myself, but in French "prévoir" indeed means both things. I wonder how much French being used in Brussels has influenced this. But I guess many European languages are similar to French for many of these things. Maybe some of these misuses are a testimony of the complexity of English, like the uncountable words, the prepositions or the usage rules of "allow". Maybe English could adopt some of these uses that seem convenient. Like, "transpose" instead of "incorporate into". And yes, I cringe a bit whenever I see "actually" used to mean "currently". It happens all the time. I guess English has its peculiarities in each area where it is spoken, and Europe is not an exception to this… And I mean, a big chunk of the English vocabulary is already French, we might as well continue the trend x)
  - kazen44 4y ago
    also, the english used by the EU is sometimes far more easier to understand for people who are not native english speakers but have english as a second or third language. Mainly because it uses words "wrong" according to english, but it makes sense in most latin/german based languages. (actual is a good example of this for instance). British english especially can have some weird vocabulary which is hard to use if one is not actually from britiain and understands the implied meaning of the words. adequate is a good example of this for instance. according to british english, adequate means that is barely doable/good enough, while in most german/latin based languages. Adequate means that it is satisfactory.
  - IIsi50MHz 4y ago
    I cannot use the word "transpose" to mean "incorporate into". Perhaps with the help of one or more additional words, like "transpose into"? For me, "transpose" by itself does not contain the separate or combined meanings of "incorporate" or "into". Par example, s'il vous plaît?
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  Thanks for that! EU "English" seems to be a hybrid of an English lexicon and a French lexicon. I got as far as 'C', and so far I haven't seen one usage that wasn't either misleading or just plain wrong.
- gattr 4y ago
  On a similar note: bullshit detection script [1]. For some fun, try using it on some large well-known tech corp's homepage. [1] https://mourner.github.io/bullshit.js/ https://mourner.github.io/bullshit.js/
- leonhard 4y ago
  That’s really interesting thanks for sharing As a German native speaker reading the first few examples this just sounds a lot like literal translations from German that I hear a lot of German speakers use when their English level isn’t that advanced (as I often perceive it to be the case for politicians as well) or only used at work and not gained from using/being exposed to English in native/cultural contexts: Actor – Aktoren (commonly used fancy word in German government communication) Actorness (not a direct translation but very common in German to make any noun into a different one through pre-/suffixes) Actual – aktuell (means current and definitely not actual) Adequate – adequat (means appropriate and definitely not adequate)
  - jraph 4y ago
    Same for French: - Acteur - Actuel - Adéquat (we don't have anything like actorness to my knowledge though) What did they think if actual does not come from German nor French? :-)
enkid 4y ago
I'm curious if other languages have similar issues. Does French suffer from too many metaphors, or Russian from euphemisms? The relationship between party slogans and Chinese always seems interesting and seems to often be an attempt to lean into such a phenomenon. Phrases like "let 100 flowers bloom," "the people's democratic dictatorship," "the Chinese dream," "the five pests," "socialism with Chinese characteristics," suggests to me that indirect use of language and euphemisms are rampant, though that seemed common in the USSR as well. I wonder if it's a byproduct of the political system, the language, or just the way these phrases are translated.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  German government speak suffers from turning all verbs into nouns and the overuse of compound words (traffic light in regular German is "Ampel", in government German it's "Lichtsignalanlage" - light signal installation). If anything there's an underuse of metaphors, to the point that excessive clarity starts obfuscating the intent because it forms its own dialect. Meanwhile corporate German is very different, and notable for the use of English or pseudo-English words where perfectly good German words exist. And of course an unhealthy dose of euphemisms. Regular German probably tends more to understatement (the highest praise is "there's nothing to complain about")
  - jraph 4y ago
    > traffic light in regular German is "Ampel", in government German it's "Lichtsignalanlage" - light signal installation Ampel is so boring though! It makes me think of people I met at a conference doing research on vertical people transportation. In other words, lifts, or elevators.
- jraph 4y ago
  > I'm curious if other languages have similar issues French does indeed. For instance, the government and the corporate world love to use vocabulary to downplay situations. Like "mouvement social" (social movement) for "grève" (strike). It's like people are moving a bit, like they are dancing. It's cute. Or "restructuration" for "massive layoffs". Newspeak is all over the place. Like the sibling commenter says about Germany, "an unhealthy dose of euphemisms". We also have all the faux English startup vocabulary that makes things feel much more extraordinary than they are, or positive when they are not particularly so. In part to make France look cool internationally probably ("French Tech" [1] - "technologies françaises" sounds boring I guess). There are also tricks you can use to make things feel less acceptable, like saying "charge sociale" (social benefits charge, feels like social burden) for "cotisation sociale" (social security contribution). [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tech https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tech (this logo, yikes)
teawrecks 4y ago
I'm all for reducing bullshit and unnecessary TLAs, but I feel like you could invert over half of the entries on this list and I wouldn't know. They're all just words I use in different circumstances. They have different connotations and aren't always interchangeable. I don't live in the UK, much less work for the UK govt, but if I did I would ignore this memo in the name of simplicity.

by jraph 4y ago

Aardwolf 4y ago

The list also looks useful to "translate" existing corpspeak. But on the other hand, it can be misused as well by reversing the left and right sides...

PreInternet01 4y ago

You might also enjoy "Misused English words and expressions in EU publications": https://www.eca.europa.eu/Other%20publications/EN_TERMINOLOGY_PUBLICATION/EN_TERMINOLOGY_PUBLICATION.pdf https://www.eca.europa.eu/Other%20publications/EN_TERMINOLOG...

Vinnl 4y ago
Thank you! I saw that years ago and have wanted to reference it on several occasions, but never was able to find it again.
jraph 4y ago
I love this. In particular because I was once very close to someone working in some UE-related organization in Brussels. They routinely complained about the EU having its own English, mentioning the use of "persons" where "people" would be more correct. This use is not mentioned in this publication, maybe "persons" is actually fine-ish. I can see how many of these mistakes could come from the French language. Ah ah. Whoops. Sorry! :-) For instance, "foresee" used to mean "plan" where it really means "predict". I never made the mistake because I never made the connection myself, but in French "prévoir" indeed means both things. I wonder how much French being used in Brussels has influenced this. But I guess many European languages are similar to French for many of these things. Maybe some of these misuses are a testimony of the complexity of English, like the uncountable words, the prepositions or the usage rules of "allow". Maybe English could adopt some of these uses that seem convenient. Like, "transpose" instead of "incorporate into". And yes, I cringe a bit whenever I see "actually" used to mean "currently". It happens all the time. I guess English has its peculiarities in each area where it is spoken, and Europe is not an exception to this… And I mean, a big chunk of the English vocabulary is already French, we might as well continue the trend x)
- kazen44 4y ago
  also, the english used by the EU is sometimes far more easier to understand for people who are not native english speakers but have english as a second or third language. Mainly because it uses words "wrong" according to english, but it makes sense in most latin/german based languages. (actual is a good example of this for instance). British english especially can have some weird vocabulary which is hard to use if one is not actually from britiain and understands the implied meaning of the words. adequate is a good example of this for instance. according to british english, adequate means that is barely doable/good enough, while in most german/latin based languages. Adequate means that it is satisfactory.
- IIsi50MHz 4y ago
  I cannot use the word "transpose" to mean "incorporate into". Perhaps with the help of one or more additional words, like "transpose into"? For me, "transpose" by itself does not contain the separate or combined meanings of "incorporate" or "into". Par example, s'il vous plaît?
denton-scratch 4y ago
Thanks for that! EU "English" seems to be a hybrid of an English lexicon and a French lexicon. I got as far as 'C', and so far I haven't seen one usage that wasn't either misleading or just plain wrong.
gattr 4y ago
On a similar note: bullshit detection script [1]. For some fun, try using it on some large well-known tech corp's homepage. [1] https://mourner.github.io/bullshit.js/ https://mourner.github.io/bullshit.js/
leonhard 4y ago
That’s really interesting thanks for sharing As a German native speaker reading the first few examples this just sounds a lot like literal translations from German that I hear a lot of German speakers use when their English level isn’t that advanced (as I often perceive it to be the case for politicians as well) or only used at work and not gained from using/being exposed to English in native/cultural contexts: Actor – Aktoren (commonly used fancy word in German government communication) Actorness (not a direct translation but very common in German to make any noun into a different one through pre-/suffixes) Actual – aktuell (means current and definitely not actual) Adequate – adequat (means appropriate and definitely not adequate)
- jraph 4y ago
  Same for French: - Acteur - Actuel - Adéquat (we don't have anything like actorness to my knowledge though) What did they think if actual does not come from German nor French? :-)

enkid 4y ago

I'm curious if other languages have similar issues. Does French suffer from too many metaphors, or Russian from euphemisms? The relationship between party slogans and Chinese always seems interesting and seems to often be an attempt to lean into such a phenomenon. Phrases like "let 100 flowers bloom," "the people's democratic dictatorship," "the Chinese dream," "the five pests," "socialism with Chinese characteristics," suggests to me that indirect use of language and euphemisms are rampant, though that seemed common in the USSR as well. I wonder if it's a byproduct of the political system, the language, or just the way these phrases are translated.

wongarsu 4y ago
German government speak suffers from turning all verbs into nouns and the overuse of compound words (traffic light in regular German is "Ampel", in government German it's "Lichtsignalanlage" - light signal installation). If anything there's an underuse of metaphors, to the point that excessive clarity starts obfuscating the intent because it forms its own dialect. Meanwhile corporate German is very different, and notable for the use of English or pseudo-English words where perfectly good German words exist. And of course an unhealthy dose of euphemisms. Regular German probably tends more to understatement (the highest praise is "there's nothing to complain about")
- jraph 4y ago
  > traffic light in regular German is "Ampel", in government German it's "Lichtsignalanlage" - light signal installation Ampel is so boring though! It makes me think of people I met at a conference doing research on vertical people transportation. In other words, lifts, or elevators.
jraph 4y ago
> I'm curious if other languages have similar issues French does indeed. For instance, the government and the corporate world love to use vocabulary to downplay situations. Like "mouvement social" (social movement) for "grève" (strike). It's like people are moving a bit, like they are dancing. It's cute. Or "restructuration" for "massive layoffs". Newspeak is all over the place. Like the sibling commenter says about Germany, "an unhealthy dose of euphemisms". We also have all the faux English startup vocabulary that makes things feel much more extraordinary than they are, or positive when they are not particularly so. In part to make France look cool internationally probably ("French Tech" [1] - "technologies françaises" sounds boring I guess). There are also tricks you can use to make things feel less acceptable, like saying "charge sociale" (social benefits charge, feels like social burden) for "cotisation sociale" (social security contribution). [1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tech https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tech (this logo, yikes)

teawrecks 4y ago

I'm all for reducing bullshit and unnecessary TLAs, but I feel like you could invert over half of the entries on this list and I wouldn't know. They're all just words I use in different circumstances. They have different connotations and aren't always interchangeable. I don't live in the UK, much less work for the UK govt, but if I did I would ignore this memo in the name of simplicity.