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Battery replacement must be 'easily' achieved by consumers – EU

47 points by isaacfrond 4y ago

cbeach 4y ago
I’d rather do without consumer battery replacement and have strong waterproofing instead. But now I can’t. Thanks EU. Oh, and thanks also to the EU for condemning all my Lightning cables and accessories to landfill. Nice one.
8bitsrule 4y ago
That was my first reaction when the Apple phone arrived ... RFID on steroids. Bad for consumers, bad for privacy.
- hulitu 4y ago
  Yes. But good for business. And for 3 letter agencies.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Easily be able to replace the battery yourself is meaningless on its own if the OEM doesn't also sell original batteries. If you shop online for new batteries for old phones you're most likely getting a fake or an old battery repackaged as "new". EU should first force the manufacturers to actually sell you original batteries for the phones they sell.
- atoav 4y ago
  If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it. This is a classical hen-egg problem and to first force batteries to be replaceable is a good start. (This post has been written on a modern smart phone with a replaceable battery).
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it. There already is a market for every phone battery ever made, even though they're not easily removable. The problem is they're mostly fakes or used parts masquerading as new after the scammers have reset their chips. That's the issue that this EU law won't fix. If we could buy the parts directly from the manufacturers supply chain (with the added cost) we'd all be saved.
    - atoav 4y ago
      Yeah, I replaced batteries in devices where replacing the battery meant removing the (glued in) display and the (also glued in) battery more than once before. That is just not something regular people can do.
- herbst 4y ago
  There are plenty of battery makers that make just as good battery replacements for way less money. My old ThinkPad got a $30 fake battery and is better than ever, in my Canon Camera I even prefer the 'fake' battery, as it's slightly longer living. And I still sometimes find Nokia 3310 compatible batteries in things like cheap china remotes. Pretty sure once there is a real market there will be more than enough alternatives with any quality you could ask for.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    A fake battery could also burn your house down with you sleeping in it.
    - herbst 4y ago
      a real one could too, see Samsung or any toy e-scooters. There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries. Imagine how big the market is for cameras alone. Just a quick glance at Amazon shows you there are 2-3 companies that have nothing but good reputation for their 'fakes'
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >a real one could too, see Samsung With a real battery from someone like Samsung i know who I can hold accountable and sue for damages when that happens. Especially since Samsung has a legal entity in my country. But good luck doing anything with Lucky Star Battery LLC China. >There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries Which are the ones that make reputable phone batteries? I saw a YouTuber buy half a dozen iphone 6 batteries off the internet and all were found to be fake or original refurbished with significant wear.
        herbst 4y ago
        I have 0 expertise in phone battery replacements. All I am saying is there is a market for these things once the specs are open and user can choose themselfs.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  A moot point, most of us just buy batteries on street bazars and street repair shops, regardless of their actual quality.
- ranguna 4y ago
  > EU should first force the manufacturers to actually sell you original batteries for the phones they sell. https://replique.io/2021/03/15/right-to-repair-regulation-mandatory-supply-of-spare-parts/ https://replique.io/2021/03/15/right-to-repair-regulation-ma... Not for everything, but it's a start.
- thefounder 4y ago
  I'm sure Apple will still replace it for you for the right price
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Like they do already?
    - thefounder 4y ago
      Yes, the exception will be that savy consumers will replace it themselves.
davidgerard 4y ago
Original: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20221205IPR60614/batteries-deal-on-new-eu-rules-for-design-production-and-waste-treatment https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20221205IP... > Three and a half years after the entry into force of the legislation, portable batteries in appliances must be designed so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves.
h0l0cube 4y ago
> One recent example is the mandatory use of USB-C ports for wired charging by 2024, in order to reduce electrical waste by allowing the same chargers to be used for all small consumer electronics devices. This comes into force in 2024, and Apple is expected to comply a year ahead of time by swapping out the Lightning port on iPhones for USB-C as of next year’s iPhone 15. Real sad about this. I’ve had a lot of Android and iOS phones, and by comparison to USB-C, the Lightning connector is more secure and gives a nice tactile click when it’s inserted fully.
- xdfgh1112 4y ago
  It's more important that everyone uses the same thing than that it is the best thing.
  - baeaz 4y ago
    I suppose you are being ironic because that sounds quite close to...
    - weard_beard 4y ago
      A healthy regulatory environment in which consumers and business make compromises and have rights... I know. Scary.
  - h0l0cube 4y ago
    If Apple open-sourced their connectors and involved other manufacturers and stake-holders, we might have had both. But the extra profits from accessories was obviously too hard to ignore. That said, lightning is probably more complicated and expensive to manufacture vs USB-C, and then they would have had to either compete or compromise with the USB Implementers Forum[0] instead of creating something in their vision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum
- tpxl 4y ago
  They could have both ports if they wanted to.
constantcrying 4y ago
>so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves Completely idiotic and out of touch. Phones are glued shut for a reason. User replacable batteries are not compatible with slim waterproof phones. My last phone lasted almost 5 years. It survived that long because water didn't kill it. Yes, I would have liked to just replace the battery at some point, but if I could have, it wouldn't have lasted as long. If you want people to use their phones for long you have to: - Not impede the manufacturers ability to create water/damage resistant phones. - Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones. - Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates? At that point battery degrdaation isn't even that relevant.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  I agree, there are physical compromises that will have to be made for removable batteries. The phone will be bulkier or have a smaller battery and the overall design more complex even more so to achieve the same waterproofness. Meanwhile I have never replaced a battery in my iPhones, they have all lasted years, more recent ones with optimized charging seem like no noticeable degradation. This kind of law would be similarly idiotic in EV's now they can't use structural batteries to lower weight? Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars? There were plenty of phones with removable batteries for many years. They left the market because there is barely a market for them. Once you have multiple day battery life and batteries that last 5+ years with little degradation in slim fully waterproof designs nobody cares about swapping batteries easily, take it in to the shop if the fuel tank needs replacing or trade it in for a new one.
  - pdpi 4y ago
    > Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars? Because the petrol tank won’t have shrunk to half its capacity in a few years’ time.
    - SigmundA 4y ago
      With a 500 full cycle to 80% capacity, that two years if you drained it 100% to 0% every day and the battery still has 80% of its original capacity. To get to 50% capacity should be 5 years, again only if you ran your battery down empty every single day for 5 years. So lets have a complicated waterproof quick release battery case adding weight and volume to the phone so that its easy to replace once every 5 years...
handoferis 4y ago
Nobody in the thread seems to have mentioned this, but I really wouldn't rate the chances of average consumers messing with LiPos not (at least sometimes) ending in immolation very highly. The kind of people who post on this site or get involved in repairing stuff aren't the same as the kind of person who opens a battery door and launches their AAs across the room with a screwdriver. If someone tries that with a glued down LiPo, they'll get a thermal event to the face. You can solve this problem more easily by mandating a lifetime battery warranty, if you're that desperate to.

47 points by isaacfrond 4y ago

I’d rather do without consumer battery replacement and have strong waterproofing instead. But now I can’t. Thanks EU. Oh, and thanks also to the EU for condemning all my Lightning cables and accessories to landfill. Nice one.

8bitsrule 4y ago

That was my first reaction when the Apple phone arrived ... RFID on steroids. Bad for consumers, bad for privacy.

hulitu 4y ago
Yes. But good for business. And for 3 letter agencies.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

Easily be able to replace the battery yourself is meaningless on its own if the OEM doesn't also sell original batteries. If you shop online for new batteries for old phones you're most likely getting a fake or an old battery repackaged as "new". EU should first force the manufacturers to actually sell you original batteries for the phones they sell.

atoav 4y ago
If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it. This is a classical hen-egg problem and to first force batteries to be replaceable is a good start. (This post has been written on a modern smart phone with a replaceable battery).
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >If your battery is easily replaceable there might be a market for it. There already is a market for every phone battery ever made, even though they're not easily removable. The problem is they're mostly fakes or used parts masquerading as new after the scammers have reset their chips. That's the issue that this EU law won't fix. If we could buy the parts directly from the manufacturers supply chain (with the added cost) we'd all be saved.
  - atoav 4y ago
    Yeah, I replaced batteries in devices where replacing the battery meant removing the (glued in) display and the (also glued in) battery more than once before. That is just not something regular people can do.
herbst 4y ago
There are plenty of battery makers that make just as good battery replacements for way less money. My old ThinkPad got a $30 fake battery and is better than ever, in my Canon Camera I even prefer the 'fake' battery, as it's slightly longer living. And I still sometimes find Nokia 3310 compatible batteries in things like cheap china remotes. Pretty sure once there is a real market there will be more than enough alternatives with any quality you could ask for.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  A fake battery could also burn your house down with you sleeping in it.
  - herbst 4y ago
    a real one could too, see Samsung or any toy e-scooters. There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries. Imagine how big the market is for cameras alone. Just a quick glance at Amazon shows you there are 2-3 companies that have nothing but good reputation for their 'fakes'
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >a real one could too, see Samsung With a real battery from someone like Samsung i know who I can hold accountable and sue for damages when that happens. Especially since Samsung has a legal entity in my country. But good luck doing anything with Lucky Star Battery LLC China. >There are however, and always have been, reputable third party companies that make replacement batteries Which are the ones that make reputable phone batteries? I saw a YouTuber buy half a dozen iphone 6 batteries off the internet and all were found to be fake or original refurbished with significant wear.
      - herbst 4y ago
        I have 0 expertise in phone battery replacements. All I am saying is there is a market for these things once the specs are open and user can choose themselfs.
pjmlp 4y ago
A moot point, most of us just buy batteries on street bazars and street repair shops, regardless of their actual quality.
ranguna 4y ago
> EU should first force the manufacturers to actually sell you original batteries for the phones they sell. https://replique.io/2021/03/15/right-to-repair-regulation-mandatory-supply-of-spare-parts/ https://replique.io/2021/03/15/right-to-repair-regulation-ma... Not for everything, but it's a start.
thefounder 4y ago
I'm sure Apple will still replace it for you for the right price
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Like they do already?
  - thefounder 4y ago
    Yes, the exception will be that savy consumers will replace it themselves.

davidgerard 4y ago

Original: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20221205IPR60614/batteries-deal-on-new-eu-rules-for-design-production-and-waste-treatment https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20221205IP... > Three and a half years after the entry into force of the legislation, portable batteries in appliances must be designed so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves.

h0l0cube 4y ago

> One recent example is the mandatory use of USB-C ports for wired charging by 2024, in order to reduce electrical waste by allowing the same chargers to be used for all small consumer electronics devices. This comes into force in 2024, and Apple is expected to comply a year ahead of time by swapping out the Lightning port on iPhones for USB-C as of next year’s iPhone 15. Real sad about this. I’ve had a lot of Android and iOS phones, and by comparison to USB-C, the Lightning connector is more secure and gives a nice tactile click when it’s inserted fully.

xdfgh1112 4y ago
It's more important that everyone uses the same thing than that it is the best thing.
- baeaz 4y ago
  I suppose you are being ironic because that sounds quite close to...
  - weard_beard 4y ago
    A healthy regulatory environment in which consumers and business make compromises and have rights... I know. Scary.
- h0l0cube 4y ago
  If Apple open-sourced their connectors and involved other manufacturers and stake-holders, we might have had both. But the extra profits from accessories was obviously too hard to ignore. That said, lightning is probably more complicated and expensive to manufacture vs USB-C, and then they would have had to either compete or compromise with the USB Implementers Forum[0] instead of creating something in their vision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum
tpxl 4y ago
They could have both ports if they wanted to.

constantcrying 4y ago

>so that consumers can easily remove and replace them themselves Completely idiotic and out of touch. Phones are glued shut for a reason. User replacable batteries are not compatible with slim waterproof phones. My last phone lasted almost 5 years. It survived that long because water didn't kill it. Yes, I would have liked to just replace the battery at some point, but if I could have, it wouldn't have lasted as long. If you want people to use their phones for long you have to: - Not impede the manufacturers ability to create water/damage resistant phones. - Force manufacturers to sell spare parts which can be used to service the phones. - Mandate Updates for long periods. How is it okay for a phone to have 2 years of updates? At that point battery degrdaation isn't even that relevant.

SigmundA 4y ago
I agree, there are physical compromises that will have to be made for removable batteries. The phone will be bulkier or have a smaller battery and the overall design more complex even more so to achieve the same waterproofness. Meanwhile I have never replaced a battery in my iPhones, they have all lasted years, more recent ones with optimized charging seem like no noticeable degradation. This kind of law would be similarly idiotic in EV's now they can't use structural batteries to lower weight? Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars? There were plenty of phones with removable batteries for many years. They left the market because there is barely a market for them. Once you have multiple day battery life and batteries that last 5+ years with little degradation in slim fully waterproof designs nobody cares about swapping batteries easily, take it in to the shop if the fuel tank needs replacing or trade it in for a new one.
- pdpi 4y ago
  > Why isn't there a law mandating easily removable gas tanks in cars? Because the petrol tank won’t have shrunk to half its capacity in a few years’ time.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    With a 500 full cycle to 80% capacity, that two years if you drained it 100% to 0% every day and the battery still has 80% of its original capacity. To get to 50% capacity should be 5 years, again only if you ran your battery down empty every single day for 5 years. So lets have a complicated waterproof quick release battery case adding weight and volume to the phone so that its easy to replace once every 5 years...

handoferis 4y ago

Nobody in the thread seems to have mentioned this, but I really wouldn't rate the chances of average consumers messing with LiPos not (at least sometimes) ending in immolation very highly. The kind of people who post on this site or get involved in repairing stuff aren't the same as the kind of person who opens a battery door and launches their AAs across the room with a screwdriver. If someone tries that with a glued down LiPo, they'll get a thermal event to the face. You can solve this problem more easily by mandating a lifetime battery warranty, if you're that desperate to.