4 ms·

It cost money sounds like the big one

by jitl 4y ago

kdrag0n 4y ago
That's fair, but I think the value proposition is there for some :) I'm honestly not sure how pricing and licensing will work yet, but there will be some way to try it for free. Maybe something like Docker Desktop: free for personal use, license required for companies? That seems like a risky bet as an indie dev. There's also the whole question of one-time purchases vs. subscriptions. Subscriptions seem like the optimal model for this, so I'm not sure how to accommodate people who just don't like them. Would love to hear if you have any thoughts on how it could be done to reach as many users as possible.
- judge2020 4y ago
  > Maybe something like Docker Desktop: free for personal use, license required for companies? That seems like a risky bet as an indie dev. That's how it works currently.
  - dtgriscom 4y ago
    Yes, but I'm guessing kdragOn's legal budget is a whole lot smaller than Docker, Inc's, so the perceived risk of stealing the product would be a whole lot smaller.
    - zenlikethat 4y ago
      Most businesses are honest, plus once you get to a certain size, it's all about CYA, so sure, some people might plunder it, but if you provide something a lot of people want, you could make plenty of money from the legitimates or people afraid of getting sued at some point. Then once the business is viable, the legal budget will be bigger...
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  > There's also the whole question of one-time purchases vs. subscriptions. Subscriptions seem like the optimal model for this, so I'm not sure how to accommodate people who just don't like them. My company is just large enough to require Docker Desktop licensing, and a per-seat continuous drip is too much for us. So, if you're looking to differentiate, having a buy-out option that gives permanent access to at least a range of versions would be big.
- andreareina 4y ago
  I’m not on macOS so I’m not in your intended audience but I’ve paid for stuff on the JetBrains model where the subscription also gets you permanent access to some previous version.
- jitl 4y ago
  Oh, I'll certainly pay for it. I'm excited to do so; and if it's substantially better than Docker we'd consider moving Notion eng over to it.
- gamacodre 4y ago
  The way I've seen this choice done that makes it easy (for me as a director of software dev) to buy into is a hybrid. You can pay $x/mo or $10x/yr. If you pay for the year, you don't have to do it as a subscription, but if you don't renew then you're stuck on the last version released during that year. FontAwesome, TablePlus, and some others I've paid for multiple seats on do this and it's great. Some we just paid for the one year, and others we were able to see enough ongoing value to keep paying on the subscriptions.
i386 4y ago
Even after building and selling developer tools for a decade, it always surprises and enrages me to see how miserly developers are.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  It's also our employers. They don't like to spend money on dev tools because the suits don't see the benefit. There's no glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS for every niche development usecase so they think they're throwing money into the fire.
  - YetAnotherNick 4y ago
    If you think you get more productive with $10/month or something that most dev tools cost, why don’t you buy it on your own. After all even if it increases your salary hike by 1%, it will be worth it. I have seen designers buying Adobe tools which cost much more than dev tools, and their salary is on average lower.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      I don't know where you work but in our place using tools without internal approval or certification is really frowned upon. And in the case of this particular product we were talking about, it's really an infrastructure thing. You can't implement this on your own because then your colleagues' work won't connect to yours anymore. But also, the company should just supply the tools.
  - lioeters 4y ago
    > glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS The phrase is gold. I understand from this that companies which provide tools and infrastructure for professional developers must not only attract the devs themselves, but also (and maybe more importantly) market/advertise and sell to the "suits", their managers and employers. Not sure if that's what you intended, but I'm now seeing the value of glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS, and thinking how to apply it in my own projects.
brailsafe 4y ago
Also seems like they put in a shit ton of work

It cost money sounds like the big one

by jitl 4y ago

It cost money sounds like the big one

That's fair, but I think the value proposition is there for some :) I'm honestly not sure how pricing and licensing will work yet, but there will be some way to try it for free. Maybe something like Docker Desktop: free for personal use, license required for companies? That seems like a risky bet as an indie dev. There's also the whole question of one-time purchases vs. subscriptions. Subscriptions seem like the optimal model for this, so I'm not sure how to accommodate people who just don't like them. Would love to hear if you have any thoughts on how it could be done to reach as many users as possible.

judge2020 4y ago
> Maybe something like Docker Desktop: free for personal use, license required for companies? That seems like a risky bet as an indie dev. That's how it works currently.
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  Yes, but I'm guessing kdragOn's legal budget is a whole lot smaller than Docker, Inc's, so the perceived risk of stealing the product would be a whole lot smaller.
  - zenlikethat 4y ago
    Most businesses are honest, plus once you get to a certain size, it's all about CYA, so sure, some people might plunder it, but if you provide something a lot of people want, you could make plenty of money from the legitimates or people afraid of getting sued at some point. Then once the business is viable, the legal budget will be bigger...
dtgriscom 4y ago
> There's also the whole question of one-time purchases vs. subscriptions. Subscriptions seem like the optimal model for this, so I'm not sure how to accommodate people who just don't like them. My company is just large enough to require Docker Desktop licensing, and a per-seat continuous drip is too much for us. So, if you're looking to differentiate, having a buy-out option that gives permanent access to at least a range of versions would be big.
andreareina 4y ago
I’m not on macOS so I’m not in your intended audience but I’ve paid for stuff on the JetBrains model where the subscription also gets you permanent access to some previous version.
jitl 4y ago
Oh, I'll certainly pay for it. I'm excited to do so; and if it's substantially better than Docker we'd consider moving Notion eng over to it.
gamacodre 4y ago
The way I've seen this choice done that makes it easy (for me as a director of software dev) to buy into is a hybrid. You can pay $x/mo or $10x/yr. If you pay for the year, you don't have to do it as a subscription, but if you don't renew then you're stuck on the last version released during that year. FontAwesome, TablePlus, and some others I've paid for multiple seats on do this and it's great. Some we just paid for the one year, and others we were able to see enough ongoing value to keep paying on the subscriptions.

i386 4y ago

Even after building and selling developer tools for a decade, it always surprises and enrages me to see how miserly developers are.

wkat4242 4y ago
It's also our employers. They don't like to spend money on dev tools because the suits don't see the benefit. There's no glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS for every niche development usecase so they think they're throwing money into the fire.
- YetAnotherNick 4y ago
  If you think you get more productive with $10/month or something that most dev tools cost, why don’t you buy it on your own. After all even if it increases your salary hike by 1%, it will be worth it. I have seen designers buying Adobe tools which cost much more than dev tools, and their salary is on average lower.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    I don't know where you work but in our place using tools without internal approval or certification is really frowned upon. And in the case of this particular product we were talking about, it's really an infrastructure thing. You can't implement this on your own because then your colleagues' work won't connect to yours anymore. But also, the company should just supply the tools.
- lioeters 4y ago
  > glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS The phrase is gold. I understand from this that companies which provide tools and infrastructure for professional developers must not only attract the devs themselves, but also (and maybe more importantly) market/advertise and sell to the "suits", their managers and employers. Not sure if that's what you intended, but I'm now seeing the value of glossy Gartner magic quadrant BS, and thinking how to apply it in my own projects.

brailsafe 4y ago

Also seems like they put in a shit ton of work