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Consultant for a big box retailer here. Yes, of course I can build a shopping cart site with a few good hackers, and I can find a few good hackers anywhere. Bu

Consultant for a big box retailer here. Yes, of course I can build a shopping cart site with a few good hackers, and I can find a few good hackers anywhere. But that's not what I have. I have a pile of legacy crud that has to integrate with ten other piles of legacy crud, not to mention the external crud with which I must integrate. And did I mention that during holiday the site gets a little more traffic than most sites? Or that the site makes a few hundred million dollars, and can't just be rewritten on a whim? To solve these sorts of problems, I don't need ten good hackers, I need more like 50. Or more. And that's the challenge the article is talking about. Because good hackers have options like Facebook - or their own startups - where they don't have to deal with that kind of noise. It's a serious challenge for any big company which relies heavily on the web, which in 2012 is every big company.

HalibetLector 15y ago
"Or that the site makes a few hundred million dollars, and can't just be rewritten on a whim?" Why not? If the site is unstable and can't stay up, you can either throw 50 programmers at it and still have it crash regularly or you can take far fewer and re-write it from scratch. You're right about programmers not liking the cruft, but we also don't like most of the management processes that occur in large companies. I don't know if things have changed, but back when I worked for a large brake corporation, web programmers were devalued and distrusted. All of our decisions had to be signed off (in triplicate!) by a manager who didn't know how to program or the implications of the decisions being made. To give you on example, one of the official company-wide policies was that if you wanted to transfer files between company offices over the internet, you had to use FTP for "security purposes." We were technically not allowed to use SSH or SFTP because, when I asked, my boss said nobody had heard of it. This was in 2006.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  Rewriting a major ecommerce site in parallel with maintaining the current one, while ensuring that all functionality stays exactly the same, that all cross-pollination between systems stays exactly the same... you make it sound like it would be easy. The stakes would be incredibly high, you would need extremely skilled, experienced and passionate engineers and a management environment that would give them enough breathing space to be successful. Everyone's careers would be on the line. Besides the fact that no one is going to want to stick their necks out for Target.com (whereas someone might consider it for a site that improves lives in a meaningful way), that's going to be a lot more difficult than you're making it sound.
  - codehalo 15y ago
    Sounds like 150k to 200k to me.
kls 15y ago
Amazon actually dealt with this problem in a very elegant fashion, at some point they realized that crap cannot be excised from the system, the reality is due to integrations, 3rd party code and legacy that somewhere there is going to be crap. It was at this point that they started to move to a service based architecture in which they could isolate all business functions into black boxes or services. This way instead of having a monolithic crappy application you have disparate services with some good and some bad. Further they have service teams that are accountable to their business units for the quality of their code. So what they now had was a way to gauge very discrete units based on performance to identify bad solutions, it allowed them to surgically upgrade those areas while not affecting the rest of the system. They where able to replace those pieces of the system, by just ensuring that new solutions conformed to the old service contracts. I know that enterprise solutions don't get a lot of love here on HN because it is not the focus but SOA and by extension REST are very important technologies that help deal with the problem that you highlighted. Amazon, is a very good case study on the subject.
- projectileboy 15y ago
  Hmm, that's interesting. Did you witness this first-hand? If so, what were some of the struggles they faced?
  - kls 15y ago
    No I did not, I have contacts in the organization, but more importantly, they did a good deal of postmortems and white papers on the subject which where pretty frank about their problems and the solutions they tried using to address them, highlighting what worked and how it worked and what failed and why it failed. I read most that where available because it was a treasure trove of experience in aligning a large organizations development to improve it's quality. As such there are not many other examples that have had the success in doing it that Amazon did. AWS and S3 where two new lines of business that came out of that alignment. They streamlined the idea of business and technology as services to the point that it became a commodity in their organization.

HalibetLector 15y ago

"Or that the site makes a few hundred million dollars, and can't just be rewritten on a whim?" Why not? If the site is unstable and can't stay up, you can either throw 50 programmers at it and still have it crash regularly or you can take far fewer and re-write it from scratch. You're right about programmers not liking the cruft, but we also don't like most of the management processes that occur in large companies. I don't know if things have changed, but back when I worked for a large brake corporation, web programmers were devalued and distrusted. All of our decisions had to be signed off (in triplicate!) by a manager who didn't know how to program or the implications of the decisions being made. To give you on example, one of the official company-wide policies was that if you wanted to transfer files between company offices over the internet, you had to use FTP for "security purposes." We were technically not allowed to use SSH or SFTP because, when I asked, my boss said nobody had heard of it. This was in 2006.

mattdeboard 15y ago
Rewriting a major ecommerce site in parallel with maintaining the current one, while ensuring that all functionality stays exactly the same, that all cross-pollination between systems stays exactly the same... you make it sound like it would be easy. The stakes would be incredibly high, you would need extremely skilled, experienced and passionate engineers and a management environment that would give them enough breathing space to be successful. Everyone's careers would be on the line. Besides the fact that no one is going to want to stick their necks out for Target.com (whereas someone might consider it for a site that improves lives in a meaningful way), that's going to be a lot more difficult than you're making it sound.
- codehalo 15y ago
  Sounds like 150k to 200k to me.

kls 15y ago

Amazon actually dealt with this problem in a very elegant fashion, at some point they realized that crap cannot be excised from the system, the reality is due to integrations, 3rd party code and legacy that somewhere there is going to be crap. It was at this point that they started to move to a service based architecture in which they could isolate all business functions into black boxes or services. This way instead of having a monolithic crappy application you have disparate services with some good and some bad. Further they have service teams that are accountable to their business units for the quality of their code. So what they now had was a way to gauge very discrete units based on performance to identify bad solutions, it allowed them to surgically upgrade those areas while not affecting the rest of the system. They where able to replace those pieces of the system, by just ensuring that new solutions conformed to the old service contracts. I know that enterprise solutions don't get a lot of love here on HN because it is not the focus but SOA and by extension REST are very important technologies that help deal with the problem that you highlighted. Amazon, is a very good case study on the subject.

projectileboy 15y ago
Hmm, that's interesting. Did you witness this first-hand? If so, what were some of the struggles they faced?
- kls 15y ago
  No I did not, I have contacts in the organization, but more importantly, they did a good deal of postmortems and white papers on the subject which where pretty frank about their problems and the solutions they tried using to address them, highlighting what worked and how it worked and what failed and why it failed. I read most that where available because it was a treasure trove of experience in aligning a large organizations development to improve it's quality. As such there are not many other examples that have had the success in doing it that Amazon did. AWS and S3 where two new lines of business that came out of that alignment. They streamlined the idea of business and technology as services to the point that it became a commodity in their organization.