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You can point out individual points of data as much as you want, the end result is what matters. Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while livin

You can point out individual points of data as much as you want, the end result is what matters. Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? Have you seen the same, but on democratic countries? That should answer it.

bombolo 4y ago
Nothing bad happened to snowden after all right?
- _djo_ 4y ago
  Snowden wasn't a journalist, he was a contractor with a security clearance who leaked classified information to others and didn't go through any legally recognised whistleblowing channels. He broke the law and the conditions of his clearance. Now you could argue that he still did a good thing, and perhaps that would have been taken into account by the jury in what would have been a proper trial in a civilian court had he not left the country. None of the journalists who reported on those leaks were imprisoned or harmed. In fact, those on beats that require them to have accreditation to the White House, Pentagon, etc still have that accreditation. This is fundamentally and vastly different to what happens to journalists in China, Russia, and similarly authoritarian states.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Well this brings up another failure or short coming of our implementation of "democracy". How can the voting public hold the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc accountable as people here seems to claim we do by voting if we are not allowed to know what they are doing, and if anyone that is given access to info about what they are doing releases that we put them in a cage or drive them out the country. "National Security" is often used to cover up government abuse, the public only knows of a few rare instances of this abuse and based on those I can pretty much assume the abuses are FAR FAR more extensive than has been reveled to the public and there is great incentive by government to classify everything to ensure there is never any accountability. Just look at the actions around these JFK files that multiple administrations have tried to declassify, or the Torture report that clearly the CIA violated the law even during the investigation You must have immense trust, not backed by any rational data to support that trust, to proclaim Snowden an enemy of the people simply because he violated state secrets laws, laws that IMO should be unconstitutional in the first place, and are completely antithetical to a functional democracy. If the government can keep secrets from the voters, then the voters can not hold them accountable, it is as simple as that
wuiheerfoj 4y ago
Perhaps the leaders of the democratic countries realised that journalists attacking them keeps the illusion alive
- d110af5ccf 4y ago
  What you wrote there effectively amounts to: > perhaps the illusion not actually being an illusion is what keeps it alive
spritefs 4y ago
> Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? Have you seen the same, but on democratic countries? After Glenn Greenwald reported on the 2013 leaks, the IC and news media started up a bunch of threats of treason and were questioning his status as a journalist (to make him more legally at fault) This doesn't necessarily contradict your statement, given we state the obvious that the US govt (and executive agencies especially) are not democratic
CyanBird 4y ago
> Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? You mean like Kashoggi, right?

bombolo 4y ago

Nothing bad happened to snowden after all right?

_djo_ 4y ago
Snowden wasn't a journalist, he was a contractor with a security clearance who leaked classified information to others and didn't go through any legally recognised whistleblowing channels. He broke the law and the conditions of his clearance. Now you could argue that he still did a good thing, and perhaps that would have been taken into account by the jury in what would have been a proper trial in a civilian court had he not left the country. None of the journalists who reported on those leaks were imprisoned or harmed. In fact, those on beats that require them to have accreditation to the White House, Pentagon, etc still have that accreditation. This is fundamentally and vastly different to what happens to journalists in China, Russia, and similarly authoritarian states.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Well this brings up another failure or short coming of our implementation of "democracy". How can the voting public hold the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc accountable as people here seems to claim we do by voting if we are not allowed to know what they are doing, and if anyone that is given access to info about what they are doing releases that we put them in a cage or drive them out the country. "National Security" is often used to cover up government abuse, the public only knows of a few rare instances of this abuse and based on those I can pretty much assume the abuses are FAR FAR more extensive than has been reveled to the public and there is great incentive by government to classify everything to ensure there is never any accountability. Just look at the actions around these JFK files that multiple administrations have tried to declassify, or the Torture report that clearly the CIA violated the law even during the investigation You must have immense trust, not backed by any rational data to support that trust, to proclaim Snowden an enemy of the people simply because he violated state secrets laws, laws that IMO should be unconstitutional in the first place, and are completely antithetical to a functional democracy. If the government can keep secrets from the voters, then the voters can not hold them accountable, it is as simple as that

wuiheerfoj 4y ago

Perhaps the leaders of the democratic countries realised that journalists attacking them keeps the illusion alive

d110af5ccf 4y ago
What you wrote there effectively amounts to: > perhaps the illusion not actually being an illusion is what keeps it alive

spritefs 4y ago

> Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? Have you seen the same, but on democratic countries? After Glenn Greenwald reported on the 2013 leaks, the IC and news media started up a bunch of threats of treason and were questioning his status as a journalist (to make him more legally at fault) This doesn't necessarily contradict your statement, given we state the obvious that the US govt (and executive agencies especially) are not democratic

CyanBird 4y ago

> Have you seen journalists attacking a dictatorship while living there, and go unpunished? You mean like Kashoggi, right?