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> on bail for a $250 million bond — secured only on his parents’ home in Palo Alto Wait what? How does that work? I thought if the bond was $X, that literall

by csense 4y ago

> on bail for a $250 million bond — secured only on his parents’ home in Palo Alto Wait what? How does that work? I thought if the bond was $X, that literally means you either (a) give the court $X, cash only or (b) sit in jail until trial. How can his bond be set at $250 million, yet the court somehow isn't just making him sit in jail until and unless he either goes to trial and is found not guilty, or he coughs up $250 million?

stanleydrew 4y ago
Yeah you have to put up cash or collateral nominally worth (presumably in the court's discretion) the amount of the bond. This report seems incorrect.
edwnj 4y ago
[dead]
hollerith 4y ago
A financial intermediary trusted by the court pledges to pay the court the 250M if SBF flees and the intermediary cannot find him and take him back into custody. For typical bail amounts i.e., $50k, the intermediary usually demands 10% of the $50k from the defendant (and his friends) as a deposit, but maybe SBF found an intermediary willing to make the pledge to the court for a deposit significantly less than 10% of the 250M.
- MichaelBurge 4y ago
  > maybe SBF found an intermediary who'd take significently less than 10% of the 250M. The amount is large enough that even with 1% or 0.1% they could probably pay a professional bounty hunter to tail him for a week, reducing the odds of him escaping.
- csense 4y ago
  Okay so it's basically a bail bond, sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. What bondsman has $250M? Even if they did, why would they ever agree to this? Isn't getting $2M from a defendant on a bail bond less than even the interest you could probably get by just putting your $250M in, say, a Treasury bond over the same timeframe? For that matter, who's willing to bet $250M at 99-to-1 payout odds that a smart guy like SBF won't be able to disappear and pop up in Dubai or somewhere with no extradition to the US? (Remember SBF probably had the means, motive, opportunity and moral character to siphon a couple hundred million worth of BTC into a wallet there are no records of. And he knew for a long time FTX was going to collapse and he was probably being investigated.)
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    You also need to factor in the cost of plastic surgery and a new identity because I guarantee that if he 'just' skips to Dubai he won't be safe.
    - wombatpm 4y ago
      Nah, he just needs a haircut and decent wardrobe and no one would recognize him.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        Plus a lot of shampoo or Dawn dishwashing detergent to wash out all that unctuous grease of effective altruism.
    - 111111101101 4y ago
      People say this kind of thing all the time but I'm yet to see an internet scammer get their comeuppance. That includes people who have been identified after running exit scamming darknet markets. My guess would be that when it comes to online fraud, people are more willing to swallow it because it doesn't seem so real.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruja_Ignatova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruja_Ignatova
        mhb 4y ago
        And? Are you saying she's dead, got plastic surgery, is very good at hiding? Or what?
        jacquesm 4y ago
        Any one of those I guess. I'm not going to make that call, Interpol has a warrant out and nothing happened as a result of that so if she's hiding she's very good at it (which may well include plastic surgery) and if she's dead she did in fact get her comeuppance and then some.
danrocks 4y ago
Do his backers get the bond money back if he does show up and the process runs without any hiccups?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Do his backers get the bond money back if he does show up and the process runs without any hiccups? There is no “bond money”. The $250M he and his parent signed for, including the lesser amount the other sureties are also on the hook for, doesn’t get collected by the court unless their is a failure to appear. The security interest in the home is the only thing actually transferred.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> I thought if the bond was $X, that literally means you either (a) give the court $X, cash only or (b) sit in jail until trial. The simple answer is that you are wrong, that's not how bail and bail bonds work, and its much more complicated than that. Essentially, money bail is a pre-declared failure to appear penalty, and bond is whatever the court accepts as a sufficient promise to pay, which can include purchasing a contract from an official bail agent, having other individuals agree to be on the hook for payment, providing somr property to the court, either physically or a legal claim that allows them to seize it for nonpayment, or a combination of these.
- csense 4y ago
  Consider Joe Average defendant whose bail is set at $25,000 bail. If Joe tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $25,000 in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $200 right now" the judge will probably tell him to pound sand and sit in jail until trial. If SBF tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $250M in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $2M right now" why did the judge agree and let him out? What's the fundamental difference, besides just the number of zeros?
  - lalopalota 4y ago
    You missed the part where the defendant's lawyers provide the court the necessary evidence to convince the court that the total value of the bond is available to be confiscated if the defendant doesn't show. Which would apply in both cases you mentioned.
    - lmm 4y ago
      So what convinced the court that his parents have $250M available? That would be rather surprising based on what's publicly known about them.

by csense 4y ago

stanleydrew 4y ago

Yeah you have to put up cash or collateral nominally worth (presumably in the court's discretion) the amount of the bond. This report seems incorrect.

edwnj 4y ago

[dead]

hollerith 4y ago

A financial intermediary trusted by the court pledges to pay the court the 250M if SBF flees and the intermediary cannot find him and take him back into custody. For typical bail amounts i.e., $50k, the intermediary usually demands 10% of the $50k from the defendant (and his friends) as a deposit, but maybe SBF found an intermediary willing to make the pledge to the court for a deposit significantly less than 10% of the 250M.

MichaelBurge 4y ago
> maybe SBF found an intermediary who'd take significently less than 10% of the 250M. The amount is large enough that even with 1% or 0.1% they could probably pay a professional bounty hunter to tail him for a week, reducing the odds of him escaping.
csense 4y ago
Okay so it's basically a bail bond, sign over the $2M house to get the bondsman to post $250M bond. What bondsman has $250M? Even if they did, why would they ever agree to this? Isn't getting $2M from a defendant on a bail bond less than even the interest you could probably get by just putting your $250M in, say, a Treasury bond over the same timeframe? For that matter, who's willing to bet $250M at 99-to-1 payout odds that a smart guy like SBF won't be able to disappear and pop up in Dubai or somewhere with no extradition to the US? (Remember SBF probably had the means, motive, opportunity and moral character to siphon a couple hundred million worth of BTC into a wallet there are no records of. And he knew for a long time FTX was going to collapse and he was probably being investigated.)
- jacquesm 4y ago
  You also need to factor in the cost of plastic surgery and a new identity because I guarantee that if he 'just' skips to Dubai he won't be safe.
  - wombatpm 4y ago
    Nah, he just needs a haircut and decent wardrobe and no one would recognize him.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Plus a lot of shampoo or Dawn dishwashing detergent to wash out all that unctuous grease of effective altruism.
  - 111111101101 4y ago
    People say this kind of thing all the time but I'm yet to see an internet scammer get their comeuppance. That includes people who have been identified after running exit scamming darknet markets. My guess would be that when it comes to online fraud, people are more willing to swallow it because it doesn't seem so real.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruja_Ignatova https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruja_Ignatova
      - mhb 4y ago
        And? Are you saying she's dead, got plastic surgery, is very good at hiding? Or what?
        jacquesm 4y ago
        Any one of those I guess. I'm not going to make that call, Interpol has a warrant out and nothing happened as a result of that so if she's hiding she's very good at it (which may well include plastic surgery) and if she's dead she did in fact get her comeuppance and then some.

danrocks 4y ago

Do his backers get the bond money back if he does show up and the process runs without any hiccups?

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Do his backers get the bond money back if he does show up and the process runs without any hiccups? There is no “bond money”. The $250M he and his parent signed for, including the lesser amount the other sureties are also on the hook for, doesn’t get collected by the court unless their is a failure to appear. The security interest in the home is the only thing actually transferred.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> I thought if the bond was $X, that literally means you either (a) give the court $X, cash only or (b) sit in jail until trial. The simple answer is that you are wrong, that's not how bail and bail bonds work, and its much more complicated than that. Essentially, money bail is a pre-declared failure to appear penalty, and bond is whatever the court accepts as a sufficient promise to pay, which can include purchasing a contract from an official bail agent, having other individuals agree to be on the hook for payment, providing somr property to the court, either physically or a legal claim that allows them to seize it for nonpayment, or a combination of these.

csense 4y ago
Consider Joe Average defendant whose bail is set at $25,000 bail. If Joe tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $25,000 in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $200 right now" the judge will probably tell him to pound sand and sit in jail until trial. If SBF tells the judge "Your Honor, I'll sign a paper that says I'll be $250M in debt if I don't show up, but my family can only come up with $2M right now" why did the judge agree and let him out? What's the fundamental difference, besides just the number of zeros?
- lalopalota 4y ago
  You missed the part where the defendant's lawyers provide the court the necessary evidence to convince the court that the total value of the bond is available to be confiscated if the defendant doesn't show. Which would apply in both cases you mentioned.
  - lmm 4y ago
    So what convinced the court that his parents have $250M available? That would be rather surprising based on what's publicly known about them.