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In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have

In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. I understand your point, I just take issue with the phrasing that subsidies for renewables are skewing the market, since in fact they are rather correcting it. Secondly because the oil industry is subsidised as well.

akira2501 4y ago
> In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. People who say this don't seem to realize that it was only 70 years ago we were just stopping the use of horses and other beasts of burden to do the majority of farming, and of course, replacing them with tractors... or the impact this had on productivity and availability. Yes.. oil has negative "externalities." It also had massive benefits and created opportunities for expansion that we might not have otherwise had. The purpose of a market isn't to achieve perfect tyranny in the use of all resources, it's to make the best compromise out of the available choices. Finally, it may just be that we haven't exactly factored in all the negative external components of our new energy choices. The market, if anything, has shown that it is willing to brazenly lie to the entire world if it senses that there is massive profit to be made in it. I don't know why people would expect the elites of green energy to operate any differently than the elites of oil energy have in the past, particularly when the market has made no efforts to induce the kind of perfection you have imagined here.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  You don't need to put "externalities" in quotes as though it's a suspect concept. It's fine to be suspicious of any entity. But it's not easy to hide externalities. Your suspicion should lead pretty directly to evidence. As it does with fossil fuels. Those who profited from fossil fuels brazenly lied about their own knowledge of their externalities, but the rest of the world could see them in real time. They weren't trying to hide the externalities as much as they were mitigating their legal exposure and improving their propaganda.
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  I don’t imagine the market is perfect, quite the opposite. Unless external entities like the government introduce a way for the market to take all available information (or as much as possible) into account, the decisions the market makes will be deeply flawed. I do realise the enormous positive effects the ICE has had on growth, labour intensity and general wellbeing. But it also has bad effects and we can move past the ICE now, and in fact we could and should have a lot sooner. Most of the emissions come from electricity generation though, so no romanticising of the ICE will save us there. The world panicked about nuclear power 30 years ago because of a Soviet screwup but that was a mistake. Nuclear and renewables should have been our focus all the time since. And yes I absolutely realise there are negative externalities in cobolt extractions and whatever. That’s why we need the carbon taxes and similar regulations :)
- 8note 4y ago
  Markets are susceptible to local maxima, which includes beasts of burden over oil, and oil over renewables. Subsidies are good for overcoming them.

akira2501 4y ago

> In a purely market driven world oil would have been phased out decades ago because of all the negative externalities that the pure and perfect market would have priced in. People who say this don't seem to realize that it was only 70 years ago we were just stopping the use of horses and other beasts of burden to do the majority of farming, and of course, replacing them with tractors... or the impact this had on productivity and availability. Yes.. oil has negative "externalities." It also had massive benefits and created opportunities for expansion that we might not have otherwise had. The purpose of a market isn't to achieve perfect tyranny in the use of all resources, it's to make the best compromise out of the available choices. Finally, it may just be that we haven't exactly factored in all the negative external components of our new energy choices. The market, if anything, has shown that it is willing to brazenly lie to the entire world if it senses that there is massive profit to be made in it. I don't know why people would expect the elites of green energy to operate any differently than the elites of oil energy have in the past, particularly when the market has made no efforts to induce the kind of perfection you have imagined here.

DFHippie 4y ago
You don't need to put "externalities" in quotes as though it's a suspect concept. It's fine to be suspicious of any entity. But it's not easy to hide externalities. Your suspicion should lead pretty directly to evidence. As it does with fossil fuels. Those who profited from fossil fuels brazenly lied about their own knowledge of their externalities, but the rest of the world could see them in real time. They weren't trying to hide the externalities as much as they were mitigating their legal exposure and improving their propaganda.
Swenrekcah 4y ago
I don’t imagine the market is perfect, quite the opposite. Unless external entities like the government introduce a way for the market to take all available information (or as much as possible) into account, the decisions the market makes will be deeply flawed. I do realise the enormous positive effects the ICE has had on growth, labour intensity and general wellbeing. But it also has bad effects and we can move past the ICE now, and in fact we could and should have a lot sooner. Most of the emissions come from electricity generation though, so no romanticising of the ICE will save us there. The world panicked about nuclear power 30 years ago because of a Soviet screwup but that was a mistake. Nuclear and renewables should have been our focus all the time since. And yes I absolutely realise there are negative externalities in cobolt extractions and whatever. That’s why we need the carbon taxes and similar regulations :)
8note 4y ago
Markets are susceptible to local maxima, which includes beasts of burden over oil, and oil over renewables. Subsidies are good for overcoming them.