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There's too much nuance in this discussion to toss out generalities. In some sectors, automation has played a huge role. Certainly not all. In some parts of te

There's too much nuance in this discussion to toss out generalities. In some sectors, automation has played a huge role. Certainly not all. In some parts of tech the availability of abundant labor has played a role. Nuance is important.

CPLX 4y ago
I like nuance as much as the next guy. But the relationship between labor and capital is kind of like predator and prey. Yes, sure, in the broad sense they're all part of the same ecosystem and if that ecosystem does well it can get to a happy stable state where each community prospers. That's certainly true. But also on a day to day level one of the parties is literally trying to consume the other one.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > the relationship between labor and capital is kind of like predator and prey. That is not inherent. Businesses have mutually beneficial relationships with suppliers and customers. Transactions are win-win. There's nothing fundamentally different between a business and its employees, and no reason why the relationship cannot be win-win. But unions frame their negotiations in terms of win-lose. This is a sad state of affairs.
  - anoojb 4y ago
    This point reminds me of Costco's Mission Statement and Code of Ethics. It's so simple and easy, but for reason it's really hard for companies to copy/paste into their organizations. https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/829/~/what-is-costcos-mission-statement-and-code-of-ethics%3F https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8... I inherently agree that this is a good Code of Ethics. It comes down to whether the people at these organizations conduct themselves in a way that embodies these principles. In the OP and my specific cases it was not the case. My position is that these principles are difficult and not particularly well adopted.
  - greenyoda 4y ago
    > no reason why the relationship cannot be win-win Although it can be win-win in theory, it frequently isn't in practice. A well-known example of companies working against their own employees is the "anti-poaching" policy illegally agreed to by Google, Apple and others a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... There was no union here trying to create an adversarial situation. It was simply corporate greed (on the part of some of the most profitable companies in the world).
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      I can't think of a union negotiation where the union ever offered something in exchange for increased benefits. It was always based on threats of strikes, "the company can afford to pay more", trashing the company in public, etc. I.e. win-lose. Is it any surprise that companies don't like being treated like that? Would you? What if, instead, unions framed it as a partnership for improved success of the company. Like, for more benefits, we'll improve productivity to more than pay for it. Win-win! What a concept.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > I can't think of a union negotiation where the union ever offered something in exchange for increased benefits. Its relatively uncommon if your baseline is status quo ante (though I’ve seen it in repeatedly in public sector unions in downturns, and I’ve heard of it happening in private sector unions when the employer is in particularly dire straits), but not at all uncommon if your baseline is the employer’s offer. > Like, for more benefits, we'll improve productivity to more than pay for it. Unions don't control productivity, so they can’t promise that. Of course, if employers want to give labor a stake in productivity by offering equity, they are free to do so.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > Unions don't control productivity Of course they do. They're not mindless automatons. They're in the position with the best view of where productivity choke points are, and how to fix them. They can also run seminars to improve the training, and can help find positions where the unproductive members can be productive. I'm sad I even have to point this out. > not at all uncommon I've never heard of it. The Starbucks strike has been in the news in the last week, and the union offered nothing whatsoever but threats and demands.

CPLX 4y ago

I like nuance as much as the next guy. But the relationship between labor and capital is kind of like predator and prey. Yes, sure, in the broad sense they're all part of the same ecosystem and if that ecosystem does well it can get to a happy stable state where each community prospers. That's certainly true. But also on a day to day level one of the parties is literally trying to consume the other one.

WalterBright 4y ago
> the relationship between labor and capital is kind of like predator and prey. That is not inherent. Businesses have mutually beneficial relationships with suppliers and customers. Transactions are win-win. There's nothing fundamentally different between a business and its employees, and no reason why the relationship cannot be win-win. But unions frame their negotiations in terms of win-lose. This is a sad state of affairs.
- anoojb 4y ago
  This point reminds me of Costco's Mission Statement and Code of Ethics. It's so simple and easy, but for reason it's really hard for companies to copy/paste into their organizations. https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/829/~/what-is-costcos-mission-statement-and-code-of-ethics%3F https://customerservice.costco.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8... I inherently agree that this is a good Code of Ethics. It comes down to whether the people at these organizations conduct themselves in a way that embodies these principles. In the OP and my specific cases it was not the case. My position is that these principles are difficult and not particularly well adopted.
- greenyoda 4y ago
  > no reason why the relationship cannot be win-win Although it can be win-win in theory, it frequently isn't in practice. A well-known example of companies working against their own employees is the "anti-poaching" policy illegally agreed to by Google, Apple and others a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... There was no union here trying to create an adversarial situation. It was simply corporate greed (on the part of some of the most profitable companies in the world).
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I can't think of a union negotiation where the union ever offered something in exchange for increased benefits. It was always based on threats of strikes, "the company can afford to pay more", trashing the company in public, etc. I.e. win-lose. Is it any surprise that companies don't like being treated like that? Would you? What if, instead, unions framed it as a partnership for improved success of the company. Like, for more benefits, we'll improve productivity to more than pay for it. Win-win! What a concept.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I can't think of a union negotiation where the union ever offered something in exchange for increased benefits. Its relatively uncommon if your baseline is status quo ante (though I’ve seen it in repeatedly in public sector unions in downturns, and I’ve heard of it happening in private sector unions when the employer is in particularly dire straits), but not at all uncommon if your baseline is the employer’s offer. > Like, for more benefits, we'll improve productivity to more than pay for it. Unions don't control productivity, so they can’t promise that. Of course, if employers want to give labor a stake in productivity by offering equity, they are free to do so.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Unions don't control productivity Of course they do. They're not mindless automatons. They're in the position with the best view of where productivity choke points are, and how to fix them. They can also run seminars to improve the training, and can help find positions where the unproductive members can be productive. I'm sad I even have to point this out. > not at all uncommon I've never heard of it. The Starbucks strike has been in the news in the last week, and the union offered nothing whatsoever but threats and demands.