3 ms·

> It also means you have more money to fund your hobbies and interests Except investment banking and consulting both have notoriously long (100+ hr/wk) work we

by voisin 4y ago

> It also means you have more money to fund your hobbies and interests Except investment banking and consulting both have notoriously long (100+ hr/wk) work weeks leaving very little time for other interests and hobbies. These careers effectively force you to adopt the career as the core of your personality.

bedhead 4y ago
True but it still might be better than the alternative of working just enough (~40 hours/week) to still make it hard to spend a lot of time on outside interests while not living very comfortably, financially speaking.
HEmanZ 4y ago
My 2-cents seeing friends and a sibling go through the IB track. You have 100+ hr/wk for a few years in your 20s, when you're young and can sort of handle it. But by the time you're having a family you work more normal hours and make absolute FU money (e.g my younger brother makes over 10x/yr what I do at only 31 years old). It's not about the salary and hours when you start at 22, its about the salary and hours when you're 32 and 42. I compare this to my friends who became physicians or accountants, and I think the IB folks have a waaaay better work-to-pay ratio long-term. I'm on the fence about consulting because the pay ceiling seems lower and I don't personally know enough of them.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  You have much more flexibility of where to live as a physician. Remote software developer is probably the best pay to quality of life at work ratio, and probably even higher pay outright if you were at a high flying tech company for some portion of the last 15 years.
  - galdosdi 4y ago
    > You have much more flexibility of where to live as a physician. Ludicrously false. In the long run, sure. But your youth will be spent in whatever random town the residency match takes you to, and that's after having to go wherever there's a med school that'll take you. The flexibility comes much later and by then you may have settled down accidentally somewhere you randomly got placed.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Also true that one has to give up their 20s and possibly low 30s somewhere they do not want to be, but in general, a doctor can pick up and go anytime after that compared to someone in finance who generally has to stick around the finance hubs.
      - slt2021 4y ago
        people dont go to medicine just for $$$. Especially high status medicine like residency in microsurgery and fellowship in neurosurgery. you go to learn the craft at high status institution (like Mayo Clinic in middle of nowhere Minnesota) and help patients with the most complicated health conditions. I sincerely hope people dont become doctors just for the money. If you want money - it is much easier to become banker or trader. More money and less time spent in academics
        HEmanZ 4y ago
        I will tell you from personal experience, a huge percent of doctors do it basically just for the money. If you come from a lower to lower-middle class family, becoming a doctor might as well be becoming a billionaire. Many doctors don’t find out that other careers earn more money until they are already in or beyond residency. I was in the process of applying to med school, thinking it was my best chance of joining the upper class in America, when I met an extremely wealthy man thru a friend. He gave me the advice “Doctor career is a trap for the middle class. Do something that scales better, and don’t worry about a guaranteed career path, you’ll figure it out as you go along”. It’s a bit dramatic but I think there was truth in it, and it added to the evidence I need to change my career
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
Consulting covers a lot of different companies with different requirements. You very much can find one where you work a large but acceptable number of hours outside of the occasional crunch (50-ish is easy to find). Also no one does 100+h/wk. That’s not even physically possible. Even juniors in IB which is notorious for being gruelling are actually not doing much during the day. The main issue is that work really starts when your partner finishes their day of meetings and things have to be ready for the next morning.
- voisin 4y ago
  I agree that no one is working 100+ hr/wk but you still have to be in the office that long. I.e. you don’t have time away from the office to partake in hobbies and other interests. Any management consultant (McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc) not travelling at least 4 full days and in the office 2 of the other 3 isn’t making enough money to be relevant to this conversation. Again, it is time being sucked away from other aspects of your life, regardless of whether you’re working or not.
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    > Any management consultant (McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc) not travelling at least 4 full days and in the office 2 of the other 3 isn’t making enough money to be relevant to this conversation. That’s ridiculous. There is a world outside of the top 3 strategy consulting companies where people do make good money. What you just did is akin to limiting IT to Google, Apple and Meta. Plus even there, assignments don’t always have you travelling for days especially if you work from a capital as your clients are likely to be there too. You don’t work 6 days a week every week and the hours get a lot more reasonable as you climb the ladder. And I say that while not even thinking it’s a good job. I have been in and out of consulting (yes you can go back) during the past decade and think this stint will be my last. When it’s nice, it can be very nice but when it sucks, it sucks a lot. Also at some point you actually forget if you really do interesting things or just get really good at selling what you do.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
throwaway2037 4y ago
To be clear, a tiny fraction of an investment bank works hours like that. Morgan Stanley has about 70,000 employees. I guess about 700 junior investment bankers (M&A, IPO, etc.) are working hours like that. And it only lasts for two years. And no one forces them to do it. People willing sign-up for the career fast track. In 2022, who is working 100+ hr/wk in consulting? Doing what? The 1990s/2000s are over. Now, they are mostly milking big dumb corporations by building unnecessary, overpriced software systems. Probably magic circle junior lawyers are working much more than consultants they days, and making more money. Also you wrote: <<These careers effectively force you to adopt the career as the core of your personality.>> Not true. Many people get lucky and are selected for a two year ibanking programme. They work like crazy for two years, learn a decade's worth of banking knowledge, then move on to a different role or career.

by voisin 4y ago

bedhead 4y ago

True but it still might be better than the alternative of working just enough (~40 hours/week) to still make it hard to spend a lot of time on outside interests while not living very comfortably, financially speaking.

HEmanZ 4y ago

My 2-cents seeing friends and a sibling go through the IB track. You have 100+ hr/wk for a few years in your 20s, when you're young and can sort of handle it. But by the time you're having a family you work more normal hours and make absolute FU money (e.g my younger brother makes over 10x/yr what I do at only 31 years old). It's not about the salary and hours when you start at 22, its about the salary and hours when you're 32 and 42. I compare this to my friends who became physicians or accountants, and I think the IB folks have a waaaay better work-to-pay ratio long-term. I'm on the fence about consulting because the pay ceiling seems lower and I don't personally know enough of them.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
You have much more flexibility of where to live as a physician. Remote software developer is probably the best pay to quality of life at work ratio, and probably even higher pay outright if you were at a high flying tech company for some portion of the last 15 years.
- galdosdi 4y ago
  > You have much more flexibility of where to live as a physician. Ludicrously false. In the long run, sure. But your youth will be spent in whatever random town the residency match takes you to, and that's after having to go wherever there's a med school that'll take you. The flexibility comes much later and by then you may have settled down accidentally somewhere you randomly got placed.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Also true that one has to give up their 20s and possibly low 30s somewhere they do not want to be, but in general, a doctor can pick up and go anytime after that compared to someone in finance who generally has to stick around the finance hubs.
    - slt2021 4y ago
      people dont go to medicine just for $$$. Especially high status medicine like residency in microsurgery and fellowship in neurosurgery. you go to learn the craft at high status institution (like Mayo Clinic in middle of nowhere Minnesota) and help patients with the most complicated health conditions. I sincerely hope people dont become doctors just for the money. If you want money - it is much easier to become banker or trader. More money and less time spent in academics
      - HEmanZ 4y ago
        I will tell you from personal experience, a huge percent of doctors do it basically just for the money. If you come from a lower to lower-middle class family, becoming a doctor might as well be becoming a billionaire. Many doctors don’t find out that other careers earn more money until they are already in or beyond residency. I was in the process of applying to med school, thinking it was my best chance of joining the upper class in America, when I met an extremely wealthy man thru a friend. He gave me the advice “Doctor career is a trap for the middle class. Do something that scales better, and don’t worry about a guaranteed career path, you’ll figure it out as you go along”. It’s a bit dramatic but I think there was truth in it, and it added to the evidence I need to change my career

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

Consulting covers a lot of different companies with different requirements. You very much can find one where you work a large but acceptable number of hours outside of the occasional crunch (50-ish is easy to find). Also no one does 100+h/wk. That’s not even physically possible. Even juniors in IB which is notorious for being gruelling are actually not doing much during the day. The main issue is that work really starts when your partner finishes their day of meetings and things have to be ready for the next morning.

voisin 4y ago
I agree that no one is working 100+ hr/wk but you still have to be in the office that long. I.e. you don’t have time away from the office to partake in hobbies and other interests. Any management consultant (McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc) not travelling at least 4 full days and in the office 2 of the other 3 isn’t making enough money to be relevant to this conversation. Again, it is time being sucked away from other aspects of your life, regardless of whether you’re working or not.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  > Any management consultant (McKinsey, Bain, BCG, etc) not travelling at least 4 full days and in the office 2 of the other 3 isn’t making enough money to be relevant to this conversation. That’s ridiculous. There is a world outside of the top 3 strategy consulting companies where people do make good money. What you just did is akin to limiting IT to Google, Apple and Meta. Plus even there, assignments don’t always have you travelling for days especially if you work from a capital as your clients are likely to be there too. You don’t work 6 days a week every week and the hours get a lot more reasonable as you climb the ladder. And I say that while not even thinking it’s a good job. I have been in and out of consulting (yes you can go back) during the past decade and think this stint will be my last. When it’s nice, it can be very nice but when it sucks, it sucks a lot. Also at some point you actually forget if you really do interesting things or just get really good at selling what you do.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago

throwaway2037 4y ago

To be clear, a tiny fraction of an investment bank works hours like that. Morgan Stanley has about 70,000 employees. I guess about 700 junior investment bankers (M&A, IPO, etc.) are working hours like that. And it only lasts for two years. And no one forces them to do it. People willing sign-up for the career fast track. In 2022, who is working 100+ hr/wk in consulting? Doing what? The 1990s/2000s are over. Now, they are mostly milking big dumb corporations by building unnecessary, overpriced software systems. Probably magic circle junior lawyers are working much more than consultants they days, and making more money. Also you wrote: <<These careers effectively force you to adopt the career as the core of your personality.>> Not true. Many people get lucky and are selected for a two year ibanking programme. They work like crazy for two years, learn a decade's worth of banking knowledge, then move on to a different role or career.