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Off-topic: Sometimes I work on ships that have Wi-Fi for talking to local services, but due to strict metering, Internet access is usually disabled. So most of

Off-topic: Sometimes I work on ships that have Wi-Fi for talking to local services, but due to strict metering, Internet access is usually disabled. So most of the time there's no way to get notifications from monitoring systems and your fellow crew, let alone shoreside team members. It would be nice to have a solution for delivering pushes internally, and also hold open a best-effort connection to a remote server that allows some notifications through. The last solution I considered was running a Matrix homeserver on the ship with some local channels, and another instance on shore, and using federation to connect them when the uplink is available. Monitoring systems could send their alerts as DMs or to a shared channel. Then for the notifications, Apple has its Local Push Connectivity API you might be able to use to send notifications within the ship network. I'm not sure if this UnifiedPush would solve the problem on Android. Either way, though, it seems like a lot of engineering effort just for a chatroom.

karmanyaahm 4y ago
One of the first uses of UnifiedPush was to self-host the whole Matrix messaging stack. In fact, we have already had someone in the UnifiedPush chat set this up on their ship [1]. Matrix + UnifiedPush would be perfect for a disconnected situation on ships (or Mars colonies :) [1] https://matrix.to/#/!vwmBiTqilorqNCbGab:matrix.org/$hJpXxhVRhxMEJavlgsIFt-QyV3xCuMsveMl2dWRBUfk?via=libera.chat&via=matrix.org&via=envs.net https://matrix.to/#/!vwmBiTqilorqNCbGab:matrix.org/$hJpXxhVR...
- wereallterrrist 4y ago
  I'm a huge fan of Matrix and the idea of UnifiedPush, but I don't quite grok what this means (and I'm reluctant to fire up my Matrix client because I'm avoiding some things). Is there any chance you can elaborate on what "self-host the whole Matrix stack" means?
  - eternalban 4y ago
    I read the thread just now: ~" Self hosted matrix + UP. Nothing special there. Only issue is cert expiration for setups without connections that result in expired certs for https. That requires some work. "~
binwiederhier 4y ago
ntfy [1] would work for you entirely in the LAN, if you self-host the server and the phones are connected to the same Wifi. It'll only work for Android phones though, since iOS forces APNS for push notifications. ntfy is also a distributor for UnifiedPush, so you're not entirely off topic here. Hehe. Disclaimer: I am the maintainer of ntfy. [1] https://github.com/binwiederhier/ntfy https://github.com/binwiederhier/ntfy
- rgovostes 4y ago
  Interesting thanks. Have you looked into Apple's Local Push Connectivity API? It's specifically designed for VoIP calls and text messages, but perhaps the latter is enough. Not sure if it requires you to bake in any keys at compile time, or if the iOS app could allow the end-user to configure the push server. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/local_push_connectivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/l...
- palata 4y ago
  I have been using NTFY for months, love it!
pmontra 4y ago
You can self host a Gotify server (single file executable, web interface), install the app, set it to connect to the server on the local network. Sending a message is as easy as a curl to the server. It will show up in the apps. https://gotify.net/ https://gotify.net/ https://github.com/gotify/android https://github.com/gotify/android The problem is that there is no iOS app. You could use the browser there but maybe ntfy would be a better fit (Android + iOS.)
- MayeulC 4y ago
  ntfy is a Gotify alternative. It has an iOS app, but it still relies on Apple's push service, as it cannot open a persistent backgroung connection due to iOS restrictions.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> It would be nice to have a solution for delivering pushes internally, and also hold open a best-effort connection to a remote server that allows some notifications through. ... email?
inopinatus 4y ago
I've been using NNTP as a Gossip-type protocol for eventually-consistent pub/sub telemetry, monitoring, and notifications between partially-connected nodes in an unstable mesh since about 1995.
MayeulC 4y ago
In addition to what the others wrote (a local Matrix server and UnifiedPush provider such as ntfy would work fine), I suggest you look into p2p messaging systems such as Briar. I think Tox is also p2p? Lastly, Secure Scuttlebutt was actually designed on a boat for sporadic internet connection and local connections, as well as sneakernet, so that would work too, but I don't think it's designed for IM. Perfect for blogs or facebook-like stuff though. Have a member of the crew go onshore up to a Wi-Fi AP, it will act as an async data transfer for everyone. You can also exhange data with other travellers, including passing boats. Interestingly, there are a few Matrix p2p experiments. I wish apple opened their Airdrop feature as that would make proximity networking easier, though that should be achievable with Wi-Fi NAN+P2P.
- Arathorn 4y ago
  Airdrop (AWDL) is open, within iOS and macOS at least, and P2P Matrix uses it :)
  - MayeulC 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for the correct term. I am not sure the specification is open enough for other operating systems to support it, which is what I meant. Among my acquaintances, I can count Apple users on a single hand (<1% of the people I know), which severly limits the usefulness of the network. There's OWL [1] which looks promising on Linux. I hope Android devices can get something soon. I'm still a bit confused by how Linux drives Wi-Fi radio, and what is and isn't implementable in software: could older Android devices gain support for NAN and OWL through a software update? What about old computers with old Wi-Fi cards? I first got aware of Wi-Fi NAN by chatting with neilalexander on #yggdrasil:matrix.org :) It looks promising for advertising capabilities to nearby hosts, allowing to negotiate p2p connections. [1]: https://owlink.org/ https://owlink.org/

karmanyaahm 4y ago

One of the first uses of UnifiedPush was to self-host the whole Matrix messaging stack. In fact, we have already had someone in the UnifiedPush chat set this up on their ship [1]. Matrix + UnifiedPush would be perfect for a disconnected situation on ships (or Mars colonies :) [1] https://matrix.to/#/!vwmBiTqilorqNCbGab:matrix.org/$hJpXxhVRhxMEJavlgsIFt-QyV3xCuMsveMl2dWRBUfk?via=libera.chat&via=matrix.org&via=envs.net https://matrix.to/#/!vwmBiTqilorqNCbGab:matrix.org/$hJpXxhVR...

wereallterrrist 4y ago
I'm a huge fan of Matrix and the idea of UnifiedPush, but I don't quite grok what this means (and I'm reluctant to fire up my Matrix client because I'm avoiding some things). Is there any chance you can elaborate on what "self-host the whole Matrix stack" means?
- eternalban 4y ago
  I read the thread just now: ~" Self hosted matrix + UP. Nothing special there. Only issue is cert expiration for setups without connections that result in expired certs for https. That requires some work. "~

binwiederhier 4y ago

ntfy [1] would work for you entirely in the LAN, if you self-host the server and the phones are connected to the same Wifi. It'll only work for Android phones though, since iOS forces APNS for push notifications. ntfy is also a distributor for UnifiedPush, so you're not entirely off topic here. Hehe. Disclaimer: I am the maintainer of ntfy. [1] https://github.com/binwiederhier/ntfy https://github.com/binwiederhier/ntfy

rgovostes 4y ago
Interesting thanks. Have you looked into Apple's Local Push Connectivity API? It's specifically designed for VoIP calls and text messages, but perhaps the latter is enough. Not sure if it requires you to bake in any keys at compile time, or if the iOS app could allow the end-user to configure the push server. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/local_push_connectivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/networkextension/l...
palata 4y ago
I have been using NTFY for months, love it!

pmontra 4y ago

You can self host a Gotify server (single file executable, web interface), install the app, set it to connect to the server on the local network. Sending a message is as easy as a curl to the server. It will show up in the apps. https://gotify.net/ https://gotify.net/ https://github.com/gotify/android https://github.com/gotify/android The problem is that there is no iOS app. You could use the browser there but maybe ntfy would be a better fit (Android + iOS.)

MayeulC 4y ago
ntfy is a Gotify alternative. It has an iOS app, but it still relies on Apple's push service, as it cannot open a persistent backgroung connection due to iOS restrictions.

yamtaddle 4y ago

> It would be nice to have a solution for delivering pushes internally, and also hold open a best-effort connection to a remote server that allows some notifications through. ... email?

inopinatus 4y ago

I've been using NNTP as a Gossip-type protocol for eventually-consistent pub/sub telemetry, monitoring, and notifications between partially-connected nodes in an unstable mesh since about 1995.

MayeulC 4y ago

In addition to what the others wrote (a local Matrix server and UnifiedPush provider such as ntfy would work fine), I suggest you look into p2p messaging systems such as Briar. I think Tox is also p2p? Lastly, Secure Scuttlebutt was actually designed on a boat for sporadic internet connection and local connections, as well as sneakernet, so that would work too, but I don't think it's designed for IM. Perfect for blogs or facebook-like stuff though. Have a member of the crew go onshore up to a Wi-Fi AP, it will act as an async data transfer for everyone. You can also exhange data with other travellers, including passing boats. Interestingly, there are a few Matrix p2p experiments. I wish apple opened their Airdrop feature as that would make proximity networking easier, though that should be achievable with Wi-Fi NAN+P2P.

Arathorn 4y ago
Airdrop (AWDL) is open, within iOS and macOS at least, and P2P Matrix uses it :)
- MayeulC 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for the correct term. I am not sure the specification is open enough for other operating systems to support it, which is what I meant. Among my acquaintances, I can count Apple users on a single hand (<1% of the people I know), which severly limits the usefulness of the network. There's OWL [1] which looks promising on Linux. I hope Android devices can get something soon. I'm still a bit confused by how Linux drives Wi-Fi radio, and what is and isn't implementable in software: could older Android devices gain support for NAN and OWL through a software update? What about old computers with old Wi-Fi cards? I first got aware of Wi-Fi NAN by chatting with neilalexander on #yggdrasil:matrix.org :) It looks promising for advertising capabilities to nearby hosts, allowing to negotiate p2p connections. [1]: https://owlink.org/ https://owlink.org/