4 ms·

Let’s put this in perspective. Under this agreement, UC can hire a college-educated, generally high achieving, generally highly motivated researcher, in Califo

by amluto 4y ago

Let’s put this in perspective. Under this agreement, UC can hire a college-educated, generally high achieving, generally highly motivated researcher, in California, for $34k/yr. This worker will be motivated to work hard (to graduate) and is likely to also teach classes and work rather long hours. This is an incredibly good deal. Obviously the total cost is more than $34k/yr, because graduate students, like any other employees, have overhead. But university money has a way of going around in circles, and (although I haven’t checked the particular details here), a good fraction of this money may be chargeable to grants, this costing the university as a whole nothing except to the extent that these charges displace other charges that the university might otherwise benefit from. In fact, in some cases, universities charge more than 100%: the university can charge a “fee” (graduate tuition) and bill that fee to a grant. And in other cases (but maybe not under this agreement), the university can collect the fee from the student. For comparison, NSF GRFP currently pays $37k/yr. Stanford appears to pay about $27k/yr (which, if I understood the table right, is a bit embarrassing). The DoD’s NDSEG pays $40.8k/yr. Hertz pays $34k/yr. So, as far as I’m concerned, this agreement is a bargain for UC.

bitL 4y ago
Don't Stanford TAs get $100/h for running classes though? Are the wages you mentioned total or just base with a large variable portion?
- gmadsen 4y ago
  Speaking of just other schools, that sounds like that would be without a tuition waver. Typically when these super low stipends are talked about, it is with full tuition paid for. Although I think I have heard that Stanford's PhDs don't get automatic tuition waiving and need to get grant money
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    "Tuition" is a bit nebulous for PhDs because most of your time is not actually spent doing coursework: my program had students take 4-5 classes the first year, and 2-3 more at some point in the next four years. You were otherwise registered for placeholder courses like "Dissertation research" and expected to be full-time in the lab. There were plenty of educational opportunities (journal clubs, seminar series, the occasional workshop), but certainly nothing like a full undergrad course load.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      You do have to pay tuition for those "thesis" and "dissertation" classes. In the 1990s-early 2000s, when I was a gradual student at UT Austin, I worked for the university, but not as a TA or RA; as staff, I had to pay for my tuition. At the time, just the "dissertation" class was about $1000 per semester.
- j-wags 4y ago
  Narrowly speaking, $100/hour is probably true. However my arrangement as a chemistry phd student at UCSD included the following conditions: To be eligible to earn $100/hour, you must be a grad student who: * only earns at that rate for 20 hours per week * is forbidden to work any other job for pay * pays $20k/year in "tuition" despite the fact that you don't take classes after the first year or two of your 5+ year program * also works at least 30 hours per week for $0/hour in your research lab (otherwise your advisor will drop you) So, when you include those conditions, the situation is really "work 50-80 hours per week for $30-35k/year in an expensive california city". Which people were fine to do until phd student stipends started falling behind the cost of living in these cities for the past 10 years.
esalman 4y ago
> UC can hire a college-educated, generally high achieving, generally highly motivated researcher, in California, for $34k/yr That's not exactly how it works. The faculty receives a funding, from a public source such as NSF/NIH, or private source, maybe Google/Facebook, or donation. Roughly 50% of that goes to the the university in lieu of overhead, admin, facilities etc. expense (this should sound an alarm bell to anybody reading). Roughly 25% covers tuition expense- again to the university. The remainder is that $34k you are reading about. So yes, the NIH/NSF will grant more than $100k of the taxpayer money for one student, but the university takes 75% or more of that and peanuts are left for the grad student workers. If someone is in a good place, they might have $1500-2000 take home every month. If a they are in a bad place, it could be lower than $1000 a month. Basically you'd make make less than half of what a fast food worker makes. But without you, grading, research and all other critical higher education activity will stall.
- tonfreed 4y ago
  It makes you wonder how 50% goes to admin costs. That feels like a lot of overhead
  - esalman 4y ago
    In FS2017, the overhead at my department (top 5 ECE program in the US) included the following: - Library 2% - Admin & General 9.4% - Departmental Admin 26.6% - Plant Maintenance 24% - Interest on Financed Bldgs 4.6% - Equipment Depreciation 11.6% - Building & Improv. Depreciation 11.3% - Sponsored Programs Admin & GTRC 8.4% - Student Services 2.1%
  - pkaye 4y ago
    I was a student in a CSU (California state university) and a professor nominated me for a award from industry which was valued at $1000. To pass me the check, the university took 20% of the award!
    - metadat 4y ago
      This sounds like very bad behavior, sorry this happened to you. What did the institution claim the justification was? Taking an extra cut from a student, a group who are already generally pretty poor, is peak scumbag.
fallingknife 4y ago
Why does this system even exist? Grad students shouldn't even really be students, but rather junior level employees who can switch employer at will if they get better offers.
- sgc 4y ago
  I did my graduate work in Europe, and I think it is crazy how a bunch of unqualified/ semi-qualified students without their doctorates are teaching in US universities. We had exactly 0 doctoral candidates teaching classes, whereas it is widespread to have masters candidates teaching in US universities - many of which are not cheap at all. They should be students and researchers first and foremost, until they can complete their learning.
  - Wyoming23 4y ago
    You're confusing "teaching assistants" with teaching a class. A typical setup would be to have a professor give 3 lectures a week, along with open office hours, and design the curriculum. Then to have an assistant or two who are graduate students (people who have a bachelor's degree or master's degree in the subject) who help grade homework, set up lab work, and answer student questions in a 1-hour recitation/discussion meeting.
    - sgc 4y ago
      That's not the case in many places (including prestigious universities - and due to their research orientation, perhaps it happens more, the more prestigious it is). It is virtually impossible to get into a teaching position post-doctorate in the US if you have not been teaching as a doctoral candidate. I have taught in Unis where there was an entire team of doctoral candidates (and a couple master's candidates) teaching a big chunk of the classes offered to undergrads - not as assistants, just as the listed "professor". I have also followed open courses online where the "Prof" gives two or three classes in the semester, and the "assistant" teaches the rest. As far as I know and have experienced, what you are describing is less true every year.
stanford_labrat 4y ago
I don’t understand how I, a grad student in the UT system make 37k a year in salary (and was offered something similar by another UT school) when my peers in California make so much less. What happened to the UC system?
- game_the0ry 4y ago
  > What happened to the UC system? Same thing that happened to the state and all its institutions - it became culturally and morally corrupt.
- ahoho 4y ago
  Depending on your department and funding period, this may not be a like-for-like comparison. The 34k is an academic-year minimum; the CS stipend at Berkeley is $50k over the full year [1] (of course, to be fair, it is Berkeley). That said, I do think other UCs pay considerably less and do not guarantee summer funding [1] https://jeffhuang.com/computer-science-open-data/#verified-computer-science-phd-stipends https://jeffhuang.com/computer-science-open-data/#verified-c...
ffggvv 4y ago
do they also get tuition wavers? 34k + free 20k tuition aint bad as a student
- _gmax0 4y ago
  Yes but it's not guaranteed every quarter at a UC school. At least in my department, you have to re-apply on a quarter-basis for TA positions, which are generally highly sought after for its material compensation (no tuition, fee remission, and a small stipend). For research positions, contingent on you being able to 1) produce results, 2) the duration that the research proposal runs. Unless you're a PhD student/PostDoc/PI with a compelling research narrative that is novel and impactful, it can be hard to land grants (many individuals from many schools each competing for the same dwindling pool of funds). So I completely understand young people striking for more benefits, but truly, it has to come out of the university administrations' pockets. Professors and PIs are like cash strapped entrepreneurs who have no way of raising additional funds for students unless they leverage industry connections. EDIT: I don't have any visibility on the "under-the-table" finances of PIs and professors, however.
- CoreyFieldens 4y ago
  If you're a PhD student, you're probably only taking classes for around 2 years out of your 5-6 years there.

by amluto 4y ago

bitL 4y ago

Don't Stanford TAs get $100/h for running classes though? Are the wages you mentioned total or just base with a large variable portion?

gmadsen 4y ago
Speaking of just other schools, that sounds like that would be without a tuition waver. Typically when these super low stipends are talked about, it is with full tuition paid for. Although I think I have heard that Stanford's PhDs don't get automatic tuition waiving and need to get grant money
- mattkrause 4y ago
  "Tuition" is a bit nebulous for PhDs because most of your time is not actually spent doing coursework: my program had students take 4-5 classes the first year, and 2-3 more at some point in the next four years. You were otherwise registered for placeholder courses like "Dissertation research" and expected to be full-time in the lab. There were plenty of educational opportunities (journal clubs, seminar series, the occasional workshop), but certainly nothing like a full undergrad course load.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    You do have to pay tuition for those "thesis" and "dissertation" classes. In the 1990s-early 2000s, when I was a gradual student at UT Austin, I worked for the university, but not as a TA or RA; as staff, I had to pay for my tuition. At the time, just the "dissertation" class was about $1000 per semester.
j-wags 4y ago
Narrowly speaking, $100/hour is probably true. However my arrangement as a chemistry phd student at UCSD included the following conditions: To be eligible to earn $100/hour, you must be a grad student who: * only earns at that rate for 20 hours per week * is forbidden to work any other job for pay * pays $20k/year in "tuition" despite the fact that you don't take classes after the first year or two of your 5+ year program * also works at least 30 hours per week for $0/hour in your research lab (otherwise your advisor will drop you) So, when you include those conditions, the situation is really "work 50-80 hours per week for $30-35k/year in an expensive california city". Which people were fine to do until phd student stipends started falling behind the cost of living in these cities for the past 10 years.

esalman 4y ago

> UC can hire a college-educated, generally high achieving, generally highly motivated researcher, in California, for $34k/yr That's not exactly how it works. The faculty receives a funding, from a public source such as NSF/NIH, or private source, maybe Google/Facebook, or donation. Roughly 50% of that goes to the the university in lieu of overhead, admin, facilities etc. expense (this should sound an alarm bell to anybody reading). Roughly 25% covers tuition expense- again to the university. The remainder is that $34k you are reading about. So yes, the NIH/NSF will grant more than $100k of the taxpayer money for one student, but the university takes 75% or more of that and peanuts are left for the grad student workers. If someone is in a good place, they might have $1500-2000 take home every month. If a they are in a bad place, it could be lower than $1000 a month. Basically you'd make make less than half of what a fast food worker makes. But without you, grading, research and all other critical higher education activity will stall.

tonfreed 4y ago
It makes you wonder how 50% goes to admin costs. That feels like a lot of overhead
- esalman 4y ago
  In FS2017, the overhead at my department (top 5 ECE program in the US) included the following: - Library 2% - Admin & General 9.4% - Departmental Admin 26.6% - Plant Maintenance 24% - Interest on Financed Bldgs 4.6% - Equipment Depreciation 11.6% - Building & Improv. Depreciation 11.3% - Sponsored Programs Admin & GTRC 8.4% - Student Services 2.1%
- pkaye 4y ago
  I was a student in a CSU (California state university) and a professor nominated me for a award from industry which was valued at $1000. To pass me the check, the university took 20% of the award!
  - metadat 4y ago
    This sounds like very bad behavior, sorry this happened to you. What did the institution claim the justification was? Taking an extra cut from a student, a group who are already generally pretty poor, is peak scumbag.

fallingknife 4y ago

Why does this system even exist? Grad students shouldn't even really be students, but rather junior level employees who can switch employer at will if they get better offers.

sgc 4y ago
I did my graduate work in Europe, and I think it is crazy how a bunch of unqualified/ semi-qualified students without their doctorates are teaching in US universities. We had exactly 0 doctoral candidates teaching classes, whereas it is widespread to have masters candidates teaching in US universities - many of which are not cheap at all. They should be students and researchers first and foremost, until they can complete their learning.
- Wyoming23 4y ago
  You're confusing "teaching assistants" with teaching a class. A typical setup would be to have a professor give 3 lectures a week, along with open office hours, and design the curriculum. Then to have an assistant or two who are graduate students (people who have a bachelor's degree or master's degree in the subject) who help grade homework, set up lab work, and answer student questions in a 1-hour recitation/discussion meeting.
  - sgc 4y ago
    That's not the case in many places (including prestigious universities - and due to their research orientation, perhaps it happens more, the more prestigious it is). It is virtually impossible to get into a teaching position post-doctorate in the US if you have not been teaching as a doctoral candidate. I have taught in Unis where there was an entire team of doctoral candidates (and a couple master's candidates) teaching a big chunk of the classes offered to undergrads - not as assistants, just as the listed "professor". I have also followed open courses online where the "Prof" gives two or three classes in the semester, and the "assistant" teaches the rest. As far as I know and have experienced, what you are describing is less true every year.

stanford_labrat 4y ago

I don’t understand how I, a grad student in the UT system make 37k a year in salary (and was offered something similar by another UT school) when my peers in California make so much less. What happened to the UC system?

game_the0ry 4y ago
> What happened to the UC system? Same thing that happened to the state and all its institutions - it became culturally and morally corrupt.
ahoho 4y ago
Depending on your department and funding period, this may not be a like-for-like comparison. The 34k is an academic-year minimum; the CS stipend at Berkeley is $50k over the full year [1] (of course, to be fair, it is Berkeley). That said, I do think other UCs pay considerably less and do not guarantee summer funding [1] https://jeffhuang.com/computer-science-open-data/#verified-computer-science-phd-stipends https://jeffhuang.com/computer-science-open-data/#verified-c...

ffggvv 4y ago

do they also get tuition wavers? 34k + free 20k tuition aint bad as a student

_gmax0 4y ago
Yes but it's not guaranteed every quarter at a UC school. At least in my department, you have to re-apply on a quarter-basis for TA positions, which are generally highly sought after for its material compensation (no tuition, fee remission, and a small stipend). For research positions, contingent on you being able to 1) produce results, 2) the duration that the research proposal runs. Unless you're a PhD student/PostDoc/PI with a compelling research narrative that is novel and impactful, it can be hard to land grants (many individuals from many schools each competing for the same dwindling pool of funds). So I completely understand young people striking for more benefits, but truly, it has to come out of the university administrations' pockets. Professors and PIs are like cash strapped entrepreneurs who have no way of raising additional funds for students unless they leverage industry connections. EDIT: I don't have any visibility on the "under-the-table" finances of PIs and professors, however.
CoreyFieldens 4y ago
If you're a PhD student, you're probably only taking classes for around 2 years out of your 5-6 years there.