3 ms·

The entire academic institution is a scheme to extract money from undergrads to pay for research and administrators. Easy to see when you realize how much conte

The entire academic institution is a scheme to extract money from undergrads to pay for research and administrators. Easy to see when you realize how much contempt professors have for undergrads.

mjhay 4y ago
It sounds like you are quite ignorant of how research happens - the situation is precisely the opposite of what you describe. The research money comes almost exclusively from external grants, and the universities take a large chunk, often > 50%, off the top. The research subsidizes the university, not the other way around as you somehow think. Most professors would love to spend more time on undergrad education, but that's not what keeps the lights on - research grants do.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Professors would leave the university system if they didn't need the resources it provided them. They know they need undergrads, and they hate it.
  - mjhay 4y ago
    You have a bizarre idea of how this works. I take it you have never done grad school research? You can't just independently get research grants, you basically have to be in an established university or research center. The lab equipment, the computers, all of that comes from research grants. Professors are incentivized by the university to get more grant money (e.g. focus more on research), because that means the university gets more money. This isn't complicated.
    - HDThoreaun 4y ago
      I guess I'm just jaded from having to deal with professors who obviously couldn't stand undergrads and did everything in their power to ignore them. Undergrad would be much more effective if it was separated from research.
      - mjhay 4y ago
        Sure, it's not an ideal situation, but one that just kind of arose. Non-research focused liberal arts schools pretty consistently give higher-quality undergrad educations, but they are also a lot more expensive. Many professors suck, but many people in any profession suck.
      - mcguire 4y ago
        My experience was the opposite. The best classes were those taught by professors doing active research on the topic. Separating research would drastically harm instruction.
        HDThoreaun 4y ago
        Thank you for your perspective. What do you think should be done about professors who have no interest in teaching but are forced to anyway by their university? The issue as I see it is about incentives. There are no incentives for being a good teacher, so all the effort goes into research, leading to subpar experiences for undergrads.
COGlory 4y ago
It's very much the opposite. Most good professors (and good teachers) would rather be doing research. Their research brings in millions and millions of federal funding, and colleges take 45%-65% off the top of each grand in the form of indirect cost recapture. Most research professors also pay some or all of their salary from their grants. And the good, successful ones, wouldn't be at that university teaching at all if the schools didn't supply the necessary research infrastructure. Those IDCs heavily subsidize the school.
cycrutchfield 4y ago
Next you’ll tell me they call this nefarious extraction of money “tuition” and all they receive in exchange is an education!
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  If professors were paid to actually educate students I would agree. But that's not what's expected of them. I went to a top 25 university and would say most professors actively detracted from my education because they saw undergrads as nothing but a nuisance.
  - cycrutchfield 4y ago
    I’m sorry to hear you had such awful professors, but your experience is not universal so I would suggest you reconsider your assumptions.
    - HDThoreaun 4y ago
      I'm happy to reconsider in the face of evidence. My conversations indicate that professor contempt for undergrads is a relatively universal concept that most of my peers have experienced. If you have any evidence I'm happy to consider it.
      - feet 4y ago
        My experience was not like yours, I had numerous professors who not only took the time to entertain my questions but I also had some mentor me on research
      - msrenee 4y ago
        I'm sure we had very different majors and I definitely didn't go to a top 25 school, but I don't think I experienced this once getting my bachelor's. I had a couple crappy professors, but it was never due to them not caring about undergrads. They just sucked at teaching, mostly. Every one of my professors once I got to the more focused courses were passionate about educating new minds in their area of expertise. The career-building part after getting my BS was an exercise in futility, but if I could go back in time and go straight into my trade at my current workplace, I wouldn't. Thankfully I had a scholarship that covered tuition, so loans weren't an issue.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

The entire academic institution is a scheme to extract money from undergrads to pay for research and administrators. Easy to see when you realize how much contempt professors have for undergrads.

mjhay 4y ago

It sounds like you are quite ignorant of how research happens - the situation is precisely the opposite of what you describe. The research money comes almost exclusively from external grants, and the universities take a large chunk, often > 50%, off the top. The research subsidizes the university, not the other way around as you somehow think. Most professors would love to spend more time on undergrad education, but that's not what keeps the lights on - research grants do.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
Professors would leave the university system if they didn't need the resources it provided them. They know they need undergrads, and they hate it.
- mjhay 4y ago
  You have a bizarre idea of how this works. I take it you have never done grad school research? You can't just independently get research grants, you basically have to be in an established university or research center. The lab equipment, the computers, all of that comes from research grants. Professors are incentivized by the university to get more grant money (e.g. focus more on research), because that means the university gets more money. This isn't complicated.
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago
    I guess I'm just jaded from having to deal with professors who obviously couldn't stand undergrads and did everything in their power to ignore them. Undergrad would be much more effective if it was separated from research.
    - mjhay 4y ago
      Sure, it's not an ideal situation, but one that just kind of arose. Non-research focused liberal arts schools pretty consistently give higher-quality undergrad educations, but they are also a lot more expensive. Many professors suck, but many people in any profession suck.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      My experience was the opposite. The best classes were those taught by professors doing active research on the topic. Separating research would drastically harm instruction.
      - HDThoreaun 4y ago
        Thank you for your perspective. What do you think should be done about professors who have no interest in teaching but are forced to anyway by their university? The issue as I see it is about incentives. There are no incentives for being a good teacher, so all the effort goes into research, leading to subpar experiences for undergrads.

COGlory 4y ago

It's very much the opposite. Most good professors (and good teachers) would rather be doing research. Their research brings in millions and millions of federal funding, and colleges take 45%-65% off the top of each grand in the form of indirect cost recapture. Most research professors also pay some or all of their salary from their grants. And the good, successful ones, wouldn't be at that university teaching at all if the schools didn't supply the necessary research infrastructure. Those IDCs heavily subsidize the school.

cycrutchfield 4y ago

Next you’ll tell me they call this nefarious extraction of money “tuition” and all they receive in exchange is an education!

HDThoreaun 4y ago
If professors were paid to actually educate students I would agree. But that's not what's expected of them. I went to a top 25 university and would say most professors actively detracted from my education because they saw undergrads as nothing but a nuisance.
- cycrutchfield 4y ago
  I’m sorry to hear you had such awful professors, but your experience is not universal so I would suggest you reconsider your assumptions.
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago
    I'm happy to reconsider in the face of evidence. My conversations indicate that professor contempt for undergrads is a relatively universal concept that most of my peers have experienced. If you have any evidence I'm happy to consider it.
    - feet 4y ago
      My experience was not like yours, I had numerous professors who not only took the time to entertain my questions but I also had some mentor me on research
    - msrenee 4y ago
      I'm sure we had very different majors and I definitely didn't go to a top 25 school, but I don't think I experienced this once getting my bachelor's. I had a couple crappy professors, but it was never due to them not caring about undergrads. They just sucked at teaching, mostly. Every one of my professors once I got to the more focused courses were passionate about educating new minds in their area of expertise. The career-building part after getting my BS was an exercise in futility, but if I could go back in time and go straight into my trade at my current workplace, I wouldn't. Thankfully I had a scholarship that covered tuition, so loans weren't an issue.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]