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> when orange guy took the chair If politics affect you so deeply, I am wondering what you have done to get involved in politics. Do you go to county Democrat

> when orange guy took the chair If politics affect you so deeply, I am wondering what you have done to get involved in politics. Do you go to county Democrat monthly meeting? Did you join a campaign as a volunteer and make phone calls for a candidate?

jfengel 4y ago
Fighting it politically would not resolve the fact that almost half of the country wanted him to be in that chair. Even if he has lost that election -- and would have, had the rules not specifically favored the people who support him -- they would still be out there, making choices that are, as far as I can tell, objectively both absurd and hateful. If one has to work that hard just to keep utter stupidity at bay, what hope is there of actually making anything better? Whether they manage to be 51% of the vote or 49% of the vote, it's still an enormous drain on optimism. Optimism should be for solving hard problems, not trivial ones, like "let's not elect conspiracy theorists". When we can't even solve the trivial problems reliably, what point is there in thinking about ones that would actually be satisfying? That is what those monthly county meetings should be about. There are genuine challenges over genuine differences of opinion between parties about how to best resolve the issues. Instead, you go to that meeting demoralized about the question of getting around the fact that half the country thinks that you voted for a child abuser and have been taken in by numerous vast hoaxes. Either I have been taken in by vast hoaxes, or they have. It doesn't matter which one it is. That situation is extremely dangerous and demoralizing, and I see no way to fix it, even if I put forth enormous effort into barely defeating it.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I have a couple thoughts on the matter that you might find interesting. One area that I think is productive, and not particularly exhausting, is moving away from binary thinking. For example, I am confident that people on both sides of the isle have been taken in by vast hoaxes. As an independent, I am sure I have as well. More understanding and less binary thinking is a path forward, with the added benefit that it can be enjoyable and reassuring. There was an interesting EconTalk episode[1] with Monica Guzman who works to reduce political polarization[2]. She told a story about how following the election of the Orange Man, they took a bus full of Democrats from Seattle to one of the most republican cities in Oregon to talk and learn about their opinions. They learned that the most important considerations for them were issues that they were simply unaware of, and that they actually had a lot of common ground. Another area I am pretty exited about is the increased interest in rank choice voting. I think this has a lot of potential to improve political outcomes in this country. Last but not least, I think it is helpful to cultivate more local and less federal interest. If my focus is on injustices or policies happening in some distant state, not only do I have low impact, I am also neglecting problems in my own back yard where I have a lot more power to help! https://www.econtalk.org/monica-guzman-on-curiosity-and-conversation-in-contentious-times/ https://www.econtalk.org/monica-guzman-on-curiosity-and-conv... https://braverangels.org/our-story/#problem https://braverangels.org/our-story/#problem "Politics is tough. It always has been. American politics is competitive, thrilling, frustrating – and infuriating. The stakes are high. Issues are important. Outcomes matter. This is why we care, and should care, about our politics. But do our politics have to be demonizing? Does it have to bring out the worst in us? Do our politics have to destroy the goodwill of our society? Is the dehumanizing of our fellow Americans something we should accept?"
  - jfengel 4y ago
    they took a bus full of Democrats from Seattle to one of the most republican cities in Oregon to talk and learn about their opinions Do Republicans ever take a bus to Seattle to learn about Democrats' concerns?
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      The non-profit in question works with both parties and includes conservatives who seek to understand the other side. In the story I listened to, no, the non-profit did not send a bus to Seattle in the aftermath of the 2016 election. Assuming republicans never "take the bus", so what? The point isn't to do the republicans a favor by talking. The point is to personally grow, learn, and improve. There is no reason to be afraid of leaning unless you prioritize personal bias and hate over understanding.
      - jfengel 4y ago
        I prioritize neither hatred nor understanding any specific group of people. I prioritize my freedom to live my life as I will, without interference as long as I am not interfered with. My understanding them won't change that they want to interfere with my rights, a lot, for reasons that are not merely incorrect but delusional -- at least as expressed through the politicians that they vote for, who turn those delusions into policies that affect my life. I don't care what they do outside the voting booth. I take an idle interest as fellow human beings, and would rather their lives be good rather than bad. But politically, my actions are spent 100% trying to fend off them making my life much, much worse -- and I frequently fail at that.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        What if greater understanding helps you fend them off and improve your life? You might find this to be crazy, but it is fundamental to politics. Even if some people are legitimately delusional, it is extremely possible that you have something can offer others that you dont value, and they do, and thereby buy their support. Both humans and politics have multiple interests and agendas.
- prottog 4y ago
  > making choices that are, as far as I can tell, objectively both absurd and hateful. Do you interact with many of the "other" 49-51%? I know many people who voted for one candidate or the other in both 2016 and 2020 who are intelligent, thoughtful, reasonable, loving people. That you can lump half the country in one bucket and call them objectively wrong speaks more about you than them.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Yes, I have interacted with them. And I do not care if they are thoughtful, reasonable, loving people if they make absurd and hateful choices. You can't avoid the fact that they called me objectively wrong. They said so very clearly by voting for somebody who did not even begin to disguise his contempt for me. They might even be correct, but you cannot avoid the fact that the "lumping of half the country in one bucket" is something they did.

jfengel 4y ago

Fighting it politically would not resolve the fact that almost half of the country wanted him to be in that chair. Even if he has lost that election -- and would have, had the rules not specifically favored the people who support him -- they would still be out there, making choices that are, as far as I can tell, objectively both absurd and hateful. If one has to work that hard just to keep utter stupidity at bay, what hope is there of actually making anything better? Whether they manage to be 51% of the vote or 49% of the vote, it's still an enormous drain on optimism. Optimism should be for solving hard problems, not trivial ones, like "let's not elect conspiracy theorists". When we can't even solve the trivial problems reliably, what point is there in thinking about ones that would actually be satisfying? That is what those monthly county meetings should be about. There are genuine challenges over genuine differences of opinion between parties about how to best resolve the issues. Instead, you go to that meeting demoralized about the question of getting around the fact that half the country thinks that you voted for a child abuser and have been taken in by numerous vast hoaxes. Either I have been taken in by vast hoaxes, or they have. It doesn't matter which one it is. That situation is extremely dangerous and demoralizing, and I see no way to fix it, even if I put forth enormous effort into barely defeating it.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
I have a couple thoughts on the matter that you might find interesting. One area that I think is productive, and not particularly exhausting, is moving away from binary thinking. For example, I am confident that people on both sides of the isle have been taken in by vast hoaxes. As an independent, I am sure I have as well. More understanding and less binary thinking is a path forward, with the added benefit that it can be enjoyable and reassuring. There was an interesting EconTalk episode[1] with Monica Guzman who works to reduce political polarization[2]. She told a story about how following the election of the Orange Man, they took a bus full of Democrats from Seattle to one of the most republican cities in Oregon to talk and learn about their opinions. They learned that the most important considerations for them were issues that they were simply unaware of, and that they actually had a lot of common ground. Another area I am pretty exited about is the increased interest in rank choice voting. I think this has a lot of potential to improve political outcomes in this country. Last but not least, I think it is helpful to cultivate more local and less federal interest. If my focus is on injustices or policies happening in some distant state, not only do I have low impact, I am also neglecting problems in my own back yard where I have a lot more power to help! https://www.econtalk.org/monica-guzman-on-curiosity-and-conversation-in-contentious-times/ https://www.econtalk.org/monica-guzman-on-curiosity-and-conv... https://braverangels.org/our-story/#problem https://braverangels.org/our-story/#problem "Politics is tough. It always has been. American politics is competitive, thrilling, frustrating – and infuriating. The stakes are high. Issues are important. Outcomes matter. This is why we care, and should care, about our politics. But do our politics have to be demonizing? Does it have to bring out the worst in us? Do our politics have to destroy the goodwill of our society? Is the dehumanizing of our fellow Americans something we should accept?"
- jfengel 4y ago
  they took a bus full of Democrats from Seattle to one of the most republican cities in Oregon to talk and learn about their opinions Do Republicans ever take a bus to Seattle to learn about Democrats' concerns?
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    The non-profit in question works with both parties and includes conservatives who seek to understand the other side. In the story I listened to, no, the non-profit did not send a bus to Seattle in the aftermath of the 2016 election. Assuming republicans never "take the bus", so what? The point isn't to do the republicans a favor by talking. The point is to personally grow, learn, and improve. There is no reason to be afraid of leaning unless you prioritize personal bias and hate over understanding.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      I prioritize neither hatred nor understanding any specific group of people. I prioritize my freedom to live my life as I will, without interference as long as I am not interfered with. My understanding them won't change that they want to interfere with my rights, a lot, for reasons that are not merely incorrect but delusional -- at least as expressed through the politicians that they vote for, who turn those delusions into policies that affect my life. I don't care what they do outside the voting booth. I take an idle interest as fellow human beings, and would rather their lives be good rather than bad. But politically, my actions are spent 100% trying to fend off them making my life much, much worse -- and I frequently fail at that.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        What if greater understanding helps you fend them off and improve your life? You might find this to be crazy, but it is fundamental to politics. Even if some people are legitimately delusional, it is extremely possible that you have something can offer others that you dont value, and they do, and thereby buy their support. Both humans and politics have multiple interests and agendas.
prottog 4y ago
> making choices that are, as far as I can tell, objectively both absurd and hateful. Do you interact with many of the "other" 49-51%? I know many people who voted for one candidate or the other in both 2016 and 2020 who are intelligent, thoughtful, reasonable, loving people. That you can lump half the country in one bucket and call them objectively wrong speaks more about you than them.
- jfengel 4y ago
  Yes, I have interacted with them. And I do not care if they are thoughtful, reasonable, loving people if they make absurd and hateful choices. You can't avoid the fact that they called me objectively wrong. They said so very clearly by voting for somebody who did not even begin to disguise his contempt for me. They might even be correct, but you cannot avoid the fact that the "lumping of half the country in one bucket" is something they did.