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Rather than the students, I’m rooting for the tax payer in this one. California should determine grad student pay at state schools based on what level of fundin

• ummonk 4y ago
  More importantly, I'm with the undergrads. Their tuitions shouldn't go up to pay for a bunch of whiny PhDs who could have worked in industry instead.
  • lapcat 4y ago
    PhD students provide a lot of the teaching labor at universities as lecturers and teaching assistants. What do you think would happen if they were gone? This is precisely why striking is effective, because the universities need them.
    • cudgy 4y ago
      Universities would have to hire and pay actual professors instead of milking their students?
      • lapcat 4y ago
        Yes, and actual professors are vastly more expensive than grad students, so how is that going to help with undergraduate costs?
        • cudgy 4y ago
          Are they really that much more expensive? Also, wouldn’t that provide more actual jobs for PHd’s instead of competing for a scant number of jobs? Furthermore, I do not believe that the costs of undergraduate education are driven by professor salaries; I suspect there are other drivers like administrative overhead and overbuilt facilities.
          • lapcat 4y ago
            > Are they really that much more expensive? Yes. From the article: "If the deal is approved by union members, graduate students would receive a minimum stipend of $34,000 by October 2024—a raise of $13,000 for some students". So as I said, professors are vastly more expensive. > Also, wouldn’t that provide more actual jobs for PHd’s instead of competing for a scant number of jobs? Yes. But it wouldn't do anything to save money on undergraduate education. > Furthermore, I do not believe that the costs of undergraduate education are driven by professor salaries; I suspect there are other drivers like administrative overhead and overbuilt facilities. Then what's the objection to higher stipends for PhD students?
            • cudgy 4y ago
              Why pay higher stipends if the students are no longer performing professorial duties? It may be the case that they are still warranted, but fewer duties means more learning and opportunities to earn money part-time in coops or private companies.
          • tosc 4y ago
            > I suspect there are other drivers like administrative overhead and overbuilt facilities. Right, and this is why they are trying to underpay teaching staff. There is no problem with “whiny” PhDs. The problem is with overpaid self-dealing administrators betraying the purpose of the institution.
      • jleyank 4y ago
        Actual professors, no. Adjuncts. They don’t need ta’s for anything other than lab safety for the major-specific courses. It’s the first two years with the gobs and gobs of students.
        • ablatt89 4y ago
          It's not just lab work, I TA'd for physics and students would come to TA discussion sessions to get a more detailed lesson on the material covered that week since often the professor is just repeating the contents of a textbook. Also, many TAs would spend many additional hours in tutoring and office hours, giving individualized attention to students, and this workload adds up. TAs also grade quizzes, final exams, create questions for problems, etc... The professor often does very little work and leaves it to the TA, at least in my experience as a TA for physics courses. It's a lot more than just maintaining a lab.
        • thatfrenchguy 4y ago
          Can’t get adjuncts for the price you pay phd students in California though.
        • mcguire 4y ago
          That's a different group in the strike. (https://www.science.org/content/article/postdoc-union-reaches-tentative-agreement-university-california https://www.science.org/content/article/postdoc-union-reache... discusses "postdocs and academic researchers", which isn't faculty, but I believe included adjuncts.)
        • tomrod 4y ago
          They outsource grading from professors to TAs. Adjuncts do this too where they can.
    • changoplatanero 4y ago
      Universities have many needs besides TAs. the key to figuring out what a fair price for satisfying those needs is to have a market where supply can match demand. The same process can be used to set a fair price for grad student TA labor.
      • jonnycomputer 4y ago
        And they raised demand by constricting supply. Nice.
      • mcguire 4y ago
        "The same process can be used to set a fair price for grad student TA labor." That is exactly what the union is negotiating.
    • Vaslo 4y ago
      [flagged]
      • mjhay 4y ago
        That's a dumb thing to say, because it sounds like striking worked in this situation. By this same all-caps libertarian logic, any strikes would be ineffective because the workers need "The FACTORY" or whatever. The "university" is a huge collection of thousands of people, numerous competing groups, etc. The grad students can shut the whole thing down if they strike, because they are integral towards research and undergrad education happening. There's nothing quite like the unfounded confidence that ignorance brings.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    • ummonk 4y ago
      They won't go, and if they do senior undergrads and masters students will do the teaching instead.
      • lapcat 4y ago
        > masters students will do the teaching instead It's a graduate student union. Both Masters and PhD students are in the same union. > senior undergrads 1) They're not qualified. 2) Why would they even want to? It's time consuming and low paying. In fact, it would be even lower paying without a union, so senior undergrads would need to form one. Also keep in mind that PhD students are generally intending to go into teaching in the future, whereas undergrads generally aren't.
        • ummonk 4y ago
          Masters students often don't receive a stipend.
          • mcguire 4y ago
            If they're working in a teaching or research position, they do get paid. If they don't work for the university, these union negotiations don't affect them.
            • ummonk 4y ago
              And there are plenty that aren't, who should be hired to union bust and keep costs low.
              • lapcat 4y ago
                Have you considered that college students tend to be supportive of unions and wouldn't want to bust one?
  • tosc 4y ago
    Who should do the teaching instead?
    • ummonk 4y ago
      Senior undergrads and masters degree students, as well as PhDs who are willing to work for the current market rate.
  • time_to_smile 4y ago
    Tuition increases are by far going towards administrative faculty rather than academic faculty. Most academic faculty, especially those doing research, are getting their own funding and not burdening the tax payer in the slightest. Research is also incredibly important, especially at state schools, so that undergraduate students have more opportunity to participate in and learn from active research. In my experience having worked at both prestigious private and low ranking state schools, state school doing research are much more willing to have undergrads involved in research. I've seen plenty of young students coming from low income, rural homes go on to become more successful than they ever imagined because they had access to research facilities and teams. edit: it's worth noting as another commenter has that most of the teaching in universities is done by highly underpaid grad students.
    • passwordoops 4y ago
      Just made me wish this place supported the "100" emoji
  • idontpost 4y ago
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  • jleyank 4y ago
    Replying to lapcat’s comment (which wasn’t possible), I suspect the schools would just look to adjuncts or senior u-grad students to be the necessary ta’s. It’s not like a 1st or 2nd year PhD student is particularly good or interested in ta’ing - they might be taking courses and are certainly fulfilling program entry requirements. Any research out of these people is gravy. Interesting concept. Paying students to attend. I survived on this support in ancient times as somebody has to handle all those pre med/vet/dental students. But it was lean and I still can’t enjoy Mac and cheese. It certainly wasn’t a job or career. Edit: reply again to deeper in the thread: we used the early students for things like 1-2 year lab as they were way better at lab than the students. Nobody handled a recitation unless they were 3rd year or more, had neutral+ evaluations and their boss lacked RA funding. Those with funded profs didn’t waste time ta’ing as they did work and wrote paper drafts. Those with new or unfunded profs did the ta gig and they also did full time work and writing drafts. 10+ extra hours a week ta.
    • lapcat 4y ago
      > I suspect the schools would just look to adjuncts Adjuncts are more expensive than PhD students. That's not going to help at all with undergraduate costs. > or senior u-grad students to be the necessary ta’s. It’s not like a 1st or 2nd year PhD student is particularly good or interested in ta’ing - they might be taking courses and are certainly fulfilling program entry requirements. If 1st or 2nd year PhD students are not particularly good, then wouldn't senior undergraduate students be even worse? Anyway, in my experience 1st or 2nd year PhD students didn't usually TA. It was the longer tenured students who were the TAs.
    • avisser 4y ago
      You can get adjuncts and undergrads to be replacement TAs, but from my 2nd-hand experience via my wife (PhD in psychology) it would be research where things fall apart. The tenured professors rely heavily on PhD students to run grant-funded research and write papers for the lab. The general public thinks first and foremost about education, but for lots of academics, teaching is a necessary evil and research is where the prestige (and money) is.
      • 4y ago
• uluyol 4y ago
  PhD students really don't get paid much. Tuition is waived if you're a TA, and you get a small stipend + good benefits. If you're an RA, you bring money into the university (through being the engine that pulls in grant money and having your tuition paid). Most students I know were TA for one or two semesters and RA for the remainder of their 6 years. As far as I can tell, they are all a financial gain, not drain, for the university. That will likely depend on the department though. I don't know about Masters students.
  • jleyank 4y ago
    No, if you’re an RA your prof brings in the money. Might also be the fund draw for post docs but I can imagine some with their own funding (awards or governmental). Based on my experience I would think PhD candidates are smart technicians for much of their residency.
    • twelve40 4y ago
      You both bring the money, ideally. I co-authored grants with my professor and was expected to publish to make name for our work and fulfill the proposal's publishing requirements. Sure, the professor is infinitely better than me at this stuff, but there was a whole team, including grad students, who labored to get those grants, at least when I was there.
      • jleyank 4y ago
        I did all that also, but $randomgradstudent didn’t get the grant. Like $majorprof didn’t do the lab work, work up the numbers, …. They merely edited, which was important, and had to mojo to get published.
      • mcguire 4y ago
        That's part of your training.
    • RHSeeger 4y ago
      That feels like saying it's a restaurant owner that brings in money, not the staff. If the professor couldn't do all the work on their own, then it's the team (which includes the RAs) that's bringing in the money. Sure, the professor is the "name" behind the work, but there's a lot people involved.
• vt85 4y ago
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• okaram 4y ago
  If your students are striking, chances are you won't attract good students, and are not balancing priorities well.