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This sounds like they're taking the source material, removing the film grain artificially (which must degrade the data a lot), then re-adding it. It's interesti

This sounds like they're taking the source material, removing the film grain artificially (which must degrade the data a lot), then re-adding it. It's interesting that they aren't starting from a grain-free version - at least for new productions that should be available.

slhck 4y ago
Many productions specifically want film grain. Directors and DPs have very concrete aesthetic intentions when they go for film grain, so you're likely to find lots of movies with film grain added in post when they were shot on almost noiseless digital cameras. (For instance, one might scan the grain from an old film stock and apply it to the digital footage later.) Netflix is only optimizing the pipeline here, trying not to mess with the artistic intent.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  I understand that. I would expect Netflix to tell the production crew "I want the film grain on a separate layer so we can apply it after compression".
  - slhck 4y ago
    That would make sense. Just like some overlays could be added later.
rperez333 4y ago
They are starting for a very good source material, but it still grainy - even from highend digital cinema cameras.
- slhck 4y ago
  High-end digital cinema cameras are not _that_ grainy per se. The sensors are very clean. The level of grain you get from digital cinema photography is mostly by artistic choice and added through the camera or in post production. Sometimes the movie is shot digitally and transferred to film, then scanned. This was done for Dune (2021), for instance. Also, ARRI (who make the most renowned cameras for cinematic use) now specifically let you choose a grain texture on the Alexa 35 that is imprinted in the digital material. [1] [1]: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/image-science/textures https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/...
  - Avamander 4y ago
    > Also, ARRI (who make the most renowned cameras for cinematic use) now specifically let you choose a grain texture on the Alexa 35 that is imprinted in the digital material. [1] That is so sad. Such a waste if it can just be done during decoding.
    - slhck 4y ago
      From a technical perspective that would make sense, but it's unrealistic to achieve this in practice. It would be impossible for the entire market to support that. In order to maintain the artistic intent across different platforms, it's better to imprint it in the source. I guess lots of directors and DPs are frustrated enough with motion smoothing and other "enhancements" on modern TVs.
      - Avamander 4y ago
        The same way Dolby Vision has kind-of enforced better color consistency, I imagine grain could be done as well. One could call it something like Dolby Vision Film Enhancements, that would just mandate decoder support. Those who don't support it get a fallback, like the usual.

slhck 4y ago

Many productions specifically want film grain. Directors and DPs have very concrete aesthetic intentions when they go for film grain, so you're likely to find lots of movies with film grain added in post when they were shot on almost noiseless digital cameras. (For instance, one might scan the grain from an old film stock and apply it to the digital footage later.) Netflix is only optimizing the pipeline here, trying not to mess with the artistic intent.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
I understand that. I would expect Netflix to tell the production crew "I want the film grain on a separate layer so we can apply it after compression".
- slhck 4y ago
  That would make sense. Just like some overlays could be added later.

rperez333 4y ago

They are starting for a very good source material, but it still grainy - even from highend digital cinema cameras.

slhck 4y ago
High-end digital cinema cameras are not _that_ grainy per se. The sensors are very clean. The level of grain you get from digital cinema photography is mostly by artistic choice and added through the camera or in post production. Sometimes the movie is shot digitally and transferred to film, then scanned. This was done for Dune (2021), for instance. Also, ARRI (who make the most renowned cameras for cinematic use) now specifically let you choose a grain texture on the Alexa 35 that is imprinted in the digital material. [1] [1]: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/image-science/textures https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/...
- Avamander 4y ago
  > Also, ARRI (who make the most renowned cameras for cinematic use) now specifically let you choose a grain texture on the Alexa 35 that is imprinted in the digital material. [1] That is so sad. Such a waste if it can just be done during decoding.
  - slhck 4y ago
    From a technical perspective that would make sense, but it's unrealistic to achieve this in practice. It would be impossible for the entire market to support that. In order to maintain the artistic intent across different platforms, it's better to imprint it in the source. I guess lots of directors and DPs are frustrated enough with motion smoothing and other "enhancements" on modern TVs.
    - Avamander 4y ago
      The same way Dolby Vision has kind-of enforced better color consistency, I imagine grain could be done as well. One could call it something like Dolby Vision Film Enhancements, that would just mandate decoder support. Those who don't support it get a fallback, like the usual.