7 ms·

Another app to install and leak my privacy. No thanks. I’ll wait in line for a key card.

by TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

wenc 4y ago
What information will the app have that the hotel wouldn’t have at check in?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  IP address, browser/device fingerprint.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    Precise locations, time spent at each location. And device information (model, OS), super cookie association. And if it asks permissions: contacts and photos, etc. sounds like parent would grant these permissions out of app love.
    - amf12 4y ago
      You know, Phone OSs these days have a "allow location only while using the app" permission. I only need the app while I'm at my room or while checking out. You can also reject contact and photos permissions to apps. None of the hotel apps have asked me for these.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  Answered the same question here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34091783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34091783
- usrusr 4y ago
  Everything you can grab from a silent push in those months when you don't check in but still have the app installed out of convenience. In other words: not much, but something (e.g. the company can know that the app is still installed). I wouldn't go to lengths avoiding installation (just remember to uninstall if it really bothers you), but I'd prefer a purely web based implementation. How about clearing arbitrary NFC UID for access? (From a self-serve counter if taking humans out of the equation is so much of a goal) The credit card form factor is certainly not inconvenient at all, but dealing with them can still be surprisingly annoying when that happens to coincide with oddities from the very long tail of luggage situations.
- texasbigdata 4y ago
  The precise amount of tin foil you are carrying to protect yourself, in pounds, for one. /s
- craftkiller 4y ago
  You have to provide location access to enable bluetooth which means things like this story of the most unethical thing this former Twitter employee was asked to build are possible: https://twitter.com/stevekrenzel/status/1589700721121058817 https://twitter.com/stevekrenzel/status/1589700721121058817
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    Wow, what a story!
scarface74 4y ago
What privacy do you think you’re giving up by using an application? The hotel may find out you are staying there and when you come into your room - ie something they already know?
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  It would link it to other pseudonymous identifiers that don’t (yet) know who you are but would very much like to.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    And what are these “pseudononymous” identifiers that you worry about? It’s much easier to track across the web than apps. And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you?
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      Web/apps have a lot of pseudonymous data points but rarely have a link to your real-life identity. Real-life things like hotels have the latter but rarely the former. Installing an app allows data brokers to bridge the two identities. > And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you? Both apps rat out whatever they have on you to a data broker which then does the matching.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Don’t be handwavy, exactly what can an installed app find out about you without you giving it explicit permission?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  Anything and everything the app and its 30 social, ad, and analytics SDKs are able to capture and exfiltrate from the phone. Maybe they won't upload the list of my installed apps (which can leak information like religion or medical issues), maybe they won't track my location through the entire hotel (or everywhere), maybe they won't snoop on my pictures... but maybe they also will, and I don't like maybe. Almost certainly I'll have to agree to lengthy ToS that will then be used as justification to inundate me with spam. The Android permission model is particularly messed up because it changes every few SDK target versions, so it's hard to build a mental model what exactly you're allowing. Many apps that had a built-in photo-taking capability required storage access and wouldn't work without. Any app using bluetooth had to request and be granted location access (because Bluetooth could be used to track location... so any app acting as a key automatically also got to track you via GPS on top of that, and even if the app maker didn't want to they had to request the permission for Bluetooth to work). I've seen too many companies pushing their apps aggressively and with massive rewards. They're clearly getting something out of it, and probably not something I want to give them. If you're very, very lucky, the main goal is only to make them more "sticky" (make it easier to use them over someone else next time), but that's the thing - I don't want past service providers to stick to me.
phpisthebest 4y ago
I find installing the app likely means more Privacy When I travel, and in the App I provide my Work address and contact info, not my personal info When checking in at the desk they take my government ID, often scan it into go knows what system or what security, and then replace my Work info with my personal address in their systems No thank you, I will take the app instead
- ghaff 4y ago
  In the US, I'm not sure I've ever had a desk worker more than glance at an ID. Many places do require one though--had a heck of a time checking into a Travelodge of all things once because I had lost my license. Not sure how much of this is hotel rules and how much local regulation. Makes me wonder how this works when you use digital check-in. It's true in Europe they often copy your license and, in some countries, I believe there's some registration with the police that the hotel handles.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

Another app to install and leak my privacy. No thanks. I’ll wait in line for a key card.

wenc 4y ago

What information will the app have that the hotel wouldn’t have at check in?

Nextgrid 4y ago
IP address, browser/device fingerprint.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Precise locations, time spent at each location. And device information (model, OS), super cookie association. And if it asks permissions: contacts and photos, etc. sounds like parent would grant these permissions out of app love.
  - amf12 4y ago
    You know, Phone OSs these days have a "allow location only while using the app" permission. I only need the app while I'm at my room or while checking out. You can also reject contact and photos permissions to apps. None of the hotel apps have asked me for these.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
Answered the same question here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34091783 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34091783
usrusr 4y ago
Everything you can grab from a silent push in those months when you don't check in but still have the app installed out of convenience. In other words: not much, but something (e.g. the company can know that the app is still installed). I wouldn't go to lengths avoiding installation (just remember to uninstall if it really bothers you), but I'd prefer a purely web based implementation. How about clearing arbitrary NFC UID for access? (From a self-serve counter if taking humans out of the equation is so much of a goal) The credit card form factor is certainly not inconvenient at all, but dealing with them can still be surprisingly annoying when that happens to coincide with oddities from the very long tail of luggage situations.
texasbigdata 4y ago
The precise amount of tin foil you are carrying to protect yourself, in pounds, for one. /s
craftkiller 4y ago
You have to provide location access to enable bluetooth which means things like this story of the most unethical thing this former Twitter employee was asked to build are possible: https://twitter.com/stevekrenzel/status/1589700721121058817 https://twitter.com/stevekrenzel/status/1589700721121058817
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Wow, what a story!

scarface74 4y ago

What privacy do you think you’re giving up by using an application? The hotel may find out you are staying there and when you come into your room - ie something they already know?

Nextgrid 4y ago
It would link it to other pseudonymous identifiers that don’t (yet) know who you are but would very much like to.
- scarface74 4y ago
  And what are these “pseudononymous” identifiers that you worry about? It’s much easier to track across the web than apps. And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you?
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Web/apps have a lot of pseudonymous data points but rarely have a link to your real-life identity. Real-life things like hotels have the latter but rarely the former. Installing an app allows data brokers to bridge the two identities. > And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you? Both apps rat out whatever they have on you to a data broker which then does the matching.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Don’t be handwavy, exactly what can an installed app find out about you without you giving it explicit permission?
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
Anything and everything the app and its 30 social, ad, and analytics SDKs are able to capture and exfiltrate from the phone. Maybe they won't upload the list of my installed apps (which can leak information like religion or medical issues), maybe they won't track my location through the entire hotel (or everywhere), maybe they won't snoop on my pictures... but maybe they also will, and I don't like maybe. Almost certainly I'll have to agree to lengthy ToS that will then be used as justification to inundate me with spam. The Android permission model is particularly messed up because it changes every few SDK target versions, so it's hard to build a mental model what exactly you're allowing. Many apps that had a built-in photo-taking capability required storage access and wouldn't work without. Any app using bluetooth had to request and be granted location access (because Bluetooth could be used to track location... so any app acting as a key automatically also got to track you via GPS on top of that, and even if the app maker didn't want to they had to request the permission for Bluetooth to work). I've seen too many companies pushing their apps aggressively and with massive rewards. They're clearly getting something out of it, and probably not something I want to give them. If you're very, very lucky, the main goal is only to make them more "sticky" (make it easier to use them over someone else next time), but that's the thing - I don't want past service providers to stick to me.

phpisthebest 4y ago

I find installing the app likely means more Privacy When I travel, and in the App I provide my Work address and contact info, not my personal info When checking in at the desk they take my government ID, often scan it into go knows what system or what security, and then replace my Work info with my personal address in their systems No thank you, I will take the app instead

ghaff 4y ago
In the US, I'm not sure I've ever had a desk worker more than glance at an ID. Many places do require one though--had a heck of a time checking into a Travelodge of all things once because I had lost my license. Not sure how much of this is hotel rules and how much local regulation. Makes me wonder how this works when you use digital check-in. It's true in Europe they often copy your license and, in some countries, I believe there's some registration with the police that the hotel handles.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]