4 ms·

The point is about a snowballing larger societal collapse, led by the US and UK. (But it will reach everywhere eventually.) If you and your friends are rich an

by trevyn 4y ago

The point is about a snowballing larger societal collapse, led by the US and UK. (But it will reach everywhere eventually.) If you and your friends are rich and dull enough, you can ostrich-hole it for a while yet. If you want to see the canary in the coal mine, try befriending someone who works in the service industry.

themitigating 4y ago
People were working harder for even less a hundred years ago and society didn't collapse.
- notwokeno 4y ago
  Tradition, nationalism, religion etc. were much stronger a hundred years ago. IE there was a society worth working to participate in.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Finland is in the top position in the world happiness report in 2022. Followed by Denmark and Iceland in second and third place. Switzerland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Israel and New Zealand, were among the top 10 'happiest' countries in the world [1]. Except for Israel wouldn't you say though counties have some of the lowest religious participation? What about nationalism? I'm not trying to prove the opposite of you view as this doesn't show causation but I think it sufficiently counters your view
- scruple 4y ago
  So what are people missing today?
- yunwal 4y ago
  I’m not sure this is true anymore. The median American will never be able to afford their own home at current housing prices. Sure, we have a higher gdp per capita, but it doesn’t buy us the things we actually need like housing, health care, etc. Perhaps what’s needed is to bring back family homesteads, but that doesn’t feel like much progress.
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    Do you know what life was like 100 years ago in the US? 35% of households had access to electricity. About 20% had some sort of indoor plumbing, running hot water would be even rarer. Most people heated their houses by shoveling coal or feeding wood fires. Society was even more racially segregated and legally codified and brutally enforced by the government. In warmer rural areas it wasn't uncommon for hookworm to be endemic due to shallow dug latrines. 1/12 children 10 to 15 were working instead of school. Most adults did not graduate high school and illiteracy was not uncommon. This whole subthread is quite strange. I'm still not sure what societal collapse GP is seeing.
    - trevyn 4y ago
      We have electricity, plumbing, literacy, low hookworm rates, and rapidly declining human fellowship, companionship and participation. Strange times indeed.
      - dashundchen 4y ago
        > rapidly declining human fellowship, companionship and participation What is the evidence for this? This just reads like the eternal conservative lament that society is going down the tubes.
        trevyn 4y ago
        The evidence is that I can't even be bothered to look up evidence for you. :-)
    - 4y ago
alphabettsy 4y ago
> If you want to see the canary in the coal mine, try befriending someone who works in the service industry. I have a couple of very close friends in the service industry. They are less well off than others I know and it’s reflected in their lives (still renting, fewer vacations), but no signs of societal collapse (have families and community relationships) there either. What am I supposed to be noticing?
- kortilla 4y ago
  How do they support a family on a service industry income? Living paycheck to paycheck just hoping nothing bad happens?
  - alphabettsy 4y ago
    Service industry doesn’t necessarily mean poverty wages. For hotel housekeeping and similar it probably is though. Had a friend making about $50k waiting tables depending on the year in a city you’d likely never heard of before switching to sales. Another working in a kitchen planning to buy a home soon. I know a couple local bartenders who do much better than I expected for a neighborhood bar. Met a guy years ago who was a school janitor and for whatever reason I always thought they would be poor. Turns out that’s a pretty good job. That said, none of these people work as a cashier at McDonald’s or hotel room cleaner either. The one making $50k worked at a national steakhouse chain, not a fancy one but a step up from Applebees.
    - notwokeno 4y ago
      Yeah, you didn't mention their families though. And regardless divorce rates are way up. If the incentive to work is "yeah you can show up and nothing will go wrong." Great. The same thing happens if you don't leave your parent's basement/subsidized housing/your friend's couch and you won't have to put up with as much crap or pay for a car. Do you see why people aren't bothering?

by trevyn 4y ago

themitigating 4y ago

People were working harder for even less a hundred years ago and society didn't collapse.

notwokeno 4y ago
Tradition, nationalism, religion etc. were much stronger a hundred years ago. IE there was a society worth working to participate in.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- themitigating 4y ago
  Finland is in the top position in the world happiness report in 2022. Followed by Denmark and Iceland in second and third place. Switzerland, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Israel and New Zealand, were among the top 10 'happiest' countries in the world [1]. Except for Israel wouldn't you say though counties have some of the lowest religious participation? What about nationalism? I'm not trying to prove the opposite of you view as this doesn't show causation but I think it sufficiently counters your view
scruple 4y ago
So what are people missing today?
yunwal 4y ago
I’m not sure this is true anymore. The median American will never be able to afford their own home at current housing prices. Sure, we have a higher gdp per capita, but it doesn’t buy us the things we actually need like housing, health care, etc. Perhaps what’s needed is to bring back family homesteads, but that doesn’t feel like much progress.
- dashundchen 4y ago
  Do you know what life was like 100 years ago in the US? 35% of households had access to electricity. About 20% had some sort of indoor plumbing, running hot water would be even rarer. Most people heated their houses by shoveling coal or feeding wood fires. Society was even more racially segregated and legally codified and brutally enforced by the government. In warmer rural areas it wasn't uncommon for hookworm to be endemic due to shallow dug latrines. 1/12 children 10 to 15 were working instead of school. Most adults did not graduate high school and illiteracy was not uncommon. This whole subthread is quite strange. I'm still not sure what societal collapse GP is seeing.
  - trevyn 4y ago
    We have electricity, plumbing, literacy, low hookworm rates, and rapidly declining human fellowship, companionship and participation. Strange times indeed.
    - dashundchen 4y ago
      > rapidly declining human fellowship, companionship and participation What is the evidence for this? This just reads like the eternal conservative lament that society is going down the tubes.
      - trevyn 4y ago
        The evidence is that I can't even be bothered to look up evidence for you. :-)
  - 4y ago

alphabettsy 4y ago

> If you want to see the canary in the coal mine, try befriending someone who works in the service industry. I have a couple of very close friends in the service industry. They are less well off than others I know and it’s reflected in their lives (still renting, fewer vacations), but no signs of societal collapse (have families and community relationships) there either. What am I supposed to be noticing?

kortilla 4y ago
How do they support a family on a service industry income? Living paycheck to paycheck just hoping nothing bad happens?
- alphabettsy 4y ago
  Service industry doesn’t necessarily mean poverty wages. For hotel housekeeping and similar it probably is though. Had a friend making about $50k waiting tables depending on the year in a city you’d likely never heard of before switching to sales. Another working in a kitchen planning to buy a home soon. I know a couple local bartenders who do much better than I expected for a neighborhood bar. Met a guy years ago who was a school janitor and for whatever reason I always thought they would be poor. Turns out that’s a pretty good job. That said, none of these people work as a cashier at McDonald’s or hotel room cleaner either. The one making $50k worked at a national steakhouse chain, not a fancy one but a step up from Applebees.
  - notwokeno 4y ago
    Yeah, you didn't mention their families though. And regardless divorce rates are way up. If the incentive to work is "yeah you can show up and nothing will go wrong." Great. The same thing happens if you don't leave your parent's basement/subsidized housing/your friend's couch and you won't have to put up with as much crap or pay for a car. Do you see why people aren't bothering?