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Glad you're ok. I wish the anti helmet crowd from the Netherlands from a different thread 2 weeks ago would read this.

by jupp0r 4y ago

Xylakant 4y ago
The “anti helmet crowd” wouldn’t have any issue reading be this. Wearing helmets when you’re on a sports bike is very common in the Netherlands. It’s just not common on Dutch commuters cycles, but then again, these do not have this failure mode. Sports bikes in general have much less margin for failure, and thus fail more often and catastrophic than a solid steel bike.
- jupp0r 4y ago
  Right, all commuter bikes are made of solid steel and steel bikes never break. Got it.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    Typical Dutch commuter bikes are made of steel. And yes, steel breaks, but the failure mode of a solid steel fork is much much different from a titanium, aluminum or carbon fork. They bend, crack and at some point break, but they’ll typically not snap like this because steel is much less brittle than any of those materials. Also, speed matters. Going 15 or 50 when the thing breaks makes a difference.
    - digitalscribe 4y ago
      > Also, speed matters. Going 15 or 50 when the thing breaks makes a difference. Isnt this an argument that helmets are more important for passenger vehicles? After all, car accidents cause about 10x more head trauma in the usa.
      - toast0 4y ago
        Passenger vehicles from this century come with airbags that significantly reduce head trauma. Three point seatbelts have been mandatory in all seating positions for longer, IIRC, and significantly reduce the likelyhood of head vs pavement collisions. But, if absolute safety is paramount, you do want a five point harness, flameresistant coveralls, neck support, and a helmet, sure.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    You are very unlikely to crash at 15-20kph and even less likely to hit your head at such speed in a very upright position. In fact the odds aren't bigger than when running. Do you think runners should wear helmets? I chose to wear or not my helmet depending on the conditions. Running errands nearby on my girlfriend's lady bike? I don't use it. Riding on mostly separated bicycle paths at my girlfriend's slow pace, same. Riding 3h on the roads or trails on my road and mountain bikes, I wear it.
  - ajuc 4y ago
    When you're driving 15 km/h on a flat road accelerating and decelerating at 0.1 g (and almost always only in the horizontal direction) - you don't have the structural requirements for the bike that sport cycling has, yes.
kqr 4y ago
I don't think any "anti helmet crowd" would claim that helmets never ever help. Just that it's rare enough that it may not be worth the inconvenience. After all, are you strapping on a helmet while you're out walking, or driving a car? Sometimes, very rarely, that could be what saves your life.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  I don't know about you, but I can't walk at 15kph+, so the amount of crash energy my head would experience while walking is quite low.
  - SECProto 4y ago
    15-20 km/h is a fairly common pace in running races (2:05 to 2:50 marathon pace), no helmets are worn there.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      When you fall while running, you don't have a mechanical contraption limiting your movement. The nature of riding a bicycle (or motorcycle) makes it much more likely you'll hit your head. People also don't fall as much while running as they do when riding: it's easy to hit a crack in the pavement and lose control on a bike.
      - haspok 4y ago
        > People also don't fall as much while running as they do when riding Says who? Just a couple of days ago I had a runner get past me while I was walking on the street, 2 seconds later she hit a bump on the pavement with her foot and fell down hard (she even made a loud splash sound as she hit the ground). No, she didn't have a helmet. Should she have? At the end of the day, people should be walking around in full steel plate armour, for protection and safety. Or even better, not walking around at all. Bicycles should be banned! > it's easy to hit a crack in the pavement and lose control on a bike. No, its not. The person who says this probably hadn't ridden a bicycle in their life, or if they have, not often and not recently. Bicycle wheels are EXCELLENT at getting over cracks, bumps, ditches, holes, whatever - as long as the attack angle is as close to 90 degrees as possible. It is the riders responsibility to make sure that is the case. Wider tires also help, lower pressures too... and high speeds, counterintuitively. Of course, if you are afraid of falling or uncertain of your skills on the bike, wear a helmet by all means. Just don't think that it is "normal" and all riders are like that.
max_k 4y ago
Oh, bike helmets. I missed that thread, and I don't want to start yet another endless internet discussion about helmets, but let me point out one thing: the helmet I did wear likely wouldn't have saved my life, had the fork breakage happened one minute later.
edejong 4y ago
I’m 100% Dutch. I ride road bikes and commuter bikes. I’ve never in my life seen a steel commuter bike break like that. They rust, they bent and they scratch, but they won’t break. Or maybe if you buy a very iffy brand? As a road cyclist I go 30-50 km/h with a helmet. And as a commuter I’ll keep a moderate 20 km/h without a helmet. Big difference in terms of kinetic energy.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure the primary kinetic energy you need to worry about in a fall is the vertical drop.
  - discreteevent 4y ago
    In the worst case the speed your head would hit the ground at would be about 15 km/h.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      it's not really a theoretical problem, people actually die or experience brain damage from falling over while standing still; we know a fall of that distance is dangerous. Helmets reduce the impact and save lives and brains. The only real question is the frequency of the falls taking place from bicycles.
  - newaccount74 4y ago
    You are much more likely to catch your fall with your hands when you have an accident with your city bike vs a road bike. Biking at less than 25km/h just isn't that dangerous (unless a car hits you)
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      being more likely to catch your fall needs to be computed against how likely the falling is, and how likely injury is. This just confuses things, much easier to look at how many injuries occur.

Glad you're ok. I wish the anti helmet crowd from the Netherlands from a different thread 2 weeks ago would read this.

by jupp0r 4y ago

Glad you're ok. I wish the anti helmet crowd from the Netherlands from a different thread 2 weeks ago would read this.

The “anti helmet crowd” wouldn’t have any issue reading be this. Wearing helmets when you’re on a sports bike is very common in the Netherlands. It’s just not common on Dutch commuters cycles, but then again, these do not have this failure mode. Sports bikes in general have much less margin for failure, and thus fail more often and catastrophic than a solid steel bike.

jupp0r 4y ago
Right, all commuter bikes are made of solid steel and steel bikes never break. Got it.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  Typical Dutch commuter bikes are made of steel. And yes, steel breaks, but the failure mode of a solid steel fork is much much different from a titanium, aluminum or carbon fork. They bend, crack and at some point break, but they’ll typically not snap like this because steel is much less brittle than any of those materials. Also, speed matters. Going 15 or 50 when the thing breaks makes a difference.
  - digitalscribe 4y ago
    > Also, speed matters. Going 15 or 50 when the thing breaks makes a difference. Isnt this an argument that helmets are more important for passenger vehicles? After all, car accidents cause about 10x more head trauma in the usa.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Passenger vehicles from this century come with airbags that significantly reduce head trauma. Three point seatbelts have been mandatory in all seating positions for longer, IIRC, and significantly reduce the likelyhood of head vs pavement collisions. But, if absolute safety is paramount, you do want a five point harness, flameresistant coveralls, neck support, and a helmet, sure.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  You are very unlikely to crash at 15-20kph and even less likely to hit your head at such speed in a very upright position. In fact the odds aren't bigger than when running. Do you think runners should wear helmets? I chose to wear or not my helmet depending on the conditions. Running errands nearby on my girlfriend's lady bike? I don't use it. Riding on mostly separated bicycle paths at my girlfriend's slow pace, same. Riding 3h on the roads or trails on my road and mountain bikes, I wear it.
- ajuc 4y ago
  When you're driving 15 km/h on a flat road accelerating and decelerating at 0.1 g (and almost always only in the horizontal direction) - you don't have the structural requirements for the bike that sport cycling has, yes.

kqr 4y ago

I don't think any "anti helmet crowd" would claim that helmets never ever help. Just that it's rare enough that it may not be worth the inconvenience. After all, are you strapping on a helmet while you're out walking, or driving a car? Sometimes, very rarely, that could be what saves your life.

midoridensha 4y ago
I don't know about you, but I can't walk at 15kph+, so the amount of crash energy my head would experience while walking is quite low.
- SECProto 4y ago
  15-20 km/h is a fairly common pace in running races (2:05 to 2:50 marathon pace), no helmets are worn there.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    When you fall while running, you don't have a mechanical contraption limiting your movement. The nature of riding a bicycle (or motorcycle) makes it much more likely you'll hit your head. People also don't fall as much while running as they do when riding: it's easy to hit a crack in the pavement and lose control on a bike.
    - haspok 4y ago
      > People also don't fall as much while running as they do when riding Says who? Just a couple of days ago I had a runner get past me while I was walking on the street, 2 seconds later she hit a bump on the pavement with her foot and fell down hard (she even made a loud splash sound as she hit the ground). No, she didn't have a helmet. Should she have? At the end of the day, people should be walking around in full steel plate armour, for protection and safety. Or even better, not walking around at all. Bicycles should be banned! > it's easy to hit a crack in the pavement and lose control on a bike. No, its not. The person who says this probably hadn't ridden a bicycle in their life, or if they have, not often and not recently. Bicycle wheels are EXCELLENT at getting over cracks, bumps, ditches, holes, whatever - as long as the attack angle is as close to 90 degrees as possible. It is the riders responsibility to make sure that is the case. Wider tires also help, lower pressures too... and high speeds, counterintuitively. Of course, if you are afraid of falling or uncertain of your skills on the bike, wear a helmet by all means. Just don't think that it is "normal" and all riders are like that.

max_k 4y ago

Oh, bike helmets. I missed that thread, and I don't want to start yet another endless internet discussion about helmets, but let me point out one thing: the helmet I did wear likely wouldn't have saved my life, had the fork breakage happened one minute later.

edejong 4y ago

I’m 100% Dutch. I ride road bikes and commuter bikes. I’ve never in my life seen a steel commuter bike break like that. They rust, they bent and they scratch, but they won’t break. Or maybe if you buy a very iffy brand? As a road cyclist I go 30-50 km/h with a helmet. And as a commuter I’ll keep a moderate 20 km/h without a helmet. Big difference in terms of kinetic energy.

fsckboy 4y ago
I'm pretty sure the primary kinetic energy you need to worry about in a fall is the vertical drop.
- discreteevent 4y ago
  In the worst case the speed your head would hit the ground at would be about 15 km/h.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    it's not really a theoretical problem, people actually die or experience brain damage from falling over while standing still; we know a fall of that distance is dangerous. Helmets reduce the impact and save lives and brains. The only real question is the frequency of the falls taking place from bicycles.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  You are much more likely to catch your fall with your hands when you have an accident with your city bike vs a road bike. Biking at less than 25km/h just isn't that dangerous (unless a car hits you)
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    being more likely to catch your fall needs to be computed against how likely the falling is, and how likely injury is. This just confuses things, much easier to look at how many injuries occur.