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> gluten formation, rolling pin, or hand-stretch, food mixer. For my ingredients listed above: First, I put the yeast in the water to soak and get soft, somet

> gluten formation, rolling pin, or hand-stretch, food mixer. For my ingredients listed above: First, I put the yeast in the water to soak and get soft, sometimes for 1+ hours. Right before combining with the flour, add salt to the water and yeast and mix. There are rumors that if had the salt in the water and yeast for 1+ hours, the salt would kill the yeast. Then add ~2/3rds of the four to the water, yeast, and salt. Mix with a cooking spoon. Add the rest of the flour and mix roughly. Cover and let rise for 1+ hours. Dump onto a floured pastry board and knead: Press and flatten, fold in half, and repeat. Use enough loose flour to keep the outside surface not very sticky -- don't have to have sticky dough on fingers. Knead until dough "springs back". 8 minutes is plenty long enough. Return to the bowl, cover, and let rise again for several hours. This time will get a lot of CO2 and volume. Dump onto pastry board again, stretch into a log and cut into 8 pieces -- or fewer if want larger individual pizzas. Put each piece in its own covered plastic container. Freezing works well -- can thaw in microwave quickly or in refrigerator overnight. For a pizza, just press flat and round with finger tips. Since I press the dough on a round sheet of Teflon, I don't have to think about how to handle the dough once flat, round, and topped with sauce, cheese, etc. So, no machines, rolling pins, tossing, or hand stretching. Supposedly the kneading does "develop the gluten". The kneading does make the dough very different from the dough for pie crust. There are rumors that letting the dough rise in a refrigerator generates good, additional yeast flavor. Also, there are many varieties of yeast, and some make more and/or better flavor than others.

ilyt 4y ago
Like just put a round ball of dough and press it ? I might try it, shaping the dough into round shape is my least favourite part > There are rumors that if had the salt in the water and yeast for 1+ hours, the salt would kill the yeast. As much as I have researched that it's that some level of salt would do that but level below that would just slow the yeast down. I'd be more worried with 1h+ in water it would just not have the "fuel" to multiply. That's why I start with yeast, water and some flour, basically to get yeast to multiply a bunch before mixing it with rest of the flour, I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform > So, no machines, rolling pins, tossing, or hand stretching. Supposedly the kneading does "develop the gluten". The kneading does make the dough very different from the dough for pie crust. I tried kneading, tossing, rolling pin, and machine and honestly only difference seems to be time. End result is still "The sticky dough is now less sticky" except amount of mess and time to do it is different... > There are rumors that letting the dough rise in a refrigerator generates good, additional yeast flavor. Also, there are many varieties of yeast, and some make more and/or better flavor than others. I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough. Maybe if I tried it side by side or something...
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  This calls out for the Triangle Test! Two the same, one different, and you have to pick the outlier.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  > I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough I do sourdough, so I use a levain not a dry yeast, but I have done many 2-day doughs (48 hours rest in the fridge) and many 1-day doughs (24 hours in the fridge), and yes, I can easily tell the difference, and I prefer the 2-day dough, and will always do that timeline when schedule permits. Serious eats reached similar conclusions: https://www.seriouseats.com/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-let-my-dough-cold-ferment https://www.seriouseats.com/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-... NB thier "day 1" is same day: "Each day (including the first before it went in the fridge), I pulled out a 6-ounce chunk of it... and baked it" So what I call a "two-day dough" with about 48 hours in the fridge, is what they call "day 3", which isn't wrong: Thursday, Friday, Saturday are 3 days; Thursday afternoon to to Saturday afternoon is 2 days. Dough made on Thursday rests for 2 days before Saturday, and Saturday is the third day. I agree with them on the dough that rested 24 hours or less though - "tight, small-holed structure ... The flavor of the crumb was ... one dimensional". It is spongy and bready. Not bad, just bland.
  - graycat 4y ago
    I'd like to try some yeast that gives more flavor than the Fleischmann's <i>active dry</i> yeast I use. But, I don't want to invest time or effort looking for a yeast with "more flavor"!! I've heard claims that the usual US yeast is of strains selected for the US bread industry and where the main objective is a reliable, big, fast rise with little or no flavor! Sooooo, again, the US goes for some high industrial productivity with little attention to artisan considerations!!!
- graycat 4y ago
  > I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform I omitted some details on this point: Yes, adding the (active dry) yeast and the salt directly to the dry flour would also have me worry about "non-uniform". Sooo, I try to have steps that promise to give a nice uniform distribution of the yeast and salt ...: I don't try to get the yeast to grow or generate CO2 before it is mixed with the flour and is set aside to rise. Instead, I put the (active dry) yeast in the 650 ml of water just to soften. So, it is plenty wet, starts with plenty of water, when it is mixed in with the flour. I suspect that this step, to soften the yeast, is not necessary, to give it a drink of water, enough to soften it, is useless and pointless. Then, just before combining the water and yeast in the water with the flour, I add the salt to the water and yeast and mix it in. Sooo, the salt is nicely uniform in the water, and the yeast has a good start on being uniform in the water. Then, in goes the ~2/3rds of the flour. These ingredients can be mixed with a spoon and are still essentially a liquid. And I do that -- use the spoon to mix the mixture into what definitely looks like everything is uniformly distributed. Soooo, this spoon mixing is likely doing a good job achieving uniform distributions of the water, yeast, and salt. Then I add the remaining ~1/3rd of the flour. Now the mixture is too stiff to mix well with a spoon. Sooo, I just do a little mixing. At this point, the flour is NOT, is no longer, nicely uniformly mixed with the water, salt, and yeast. Just from an accident, I discovered that it can be good, for the final texture, to let this mixture rise some. Actually this rise step is optional. Then on to the kneading: Coat the outside surface with some flour so that your fingers don't get too sticky with the dough. Then, for the kneading, press the dough out some, enough to be able to fold it in half. Then, fold it in half, and repeat -- press, fold, press, fold .... During this, may have to add a little loose flour to the outside surface to keep too much dough sticking to your fingers. Here are, with this kneading work, sure, "developing the gluten", etc. But to me what is more important, are achieving a nice uniform distribution of the water, yeast, and salt with the flour. That is, you can pretty well tell that the water is uniformly distributed in the flour. Soooo, since, from the first efforts with the yeast and salt in the water, the yeast and salt are already uniformly distributed in the water, and now the water is uniformly distributed with the flour, no doubt the water brought along the yeast and salt uniformly and now the salt and yeast are ALSO uniformly distributed with the flour, thus, addressing your concerns! I omitted all that but include it here!

ilyt 4y ago

Like just put a round ball of dough and press it ? I might try it, shaping the dough into round shape is my least favourite part > There are rumors that if had the salt in the water and yeast for 1+ hours, the salt would kill the yeast. As much as I have researched that it's that some level of salt would do that but level below that would just slow the yeast down. I'd be more worried with 1h+ in water it would just not have the "fuel" to multiply. That's why I start with yeast, water and some flour, basically to get yeast to multiply a bunch before mixing it with rest of the flour, I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform > So, no machines, rolling pins, tossing, or hand stretching. Supposedly the kneading does "develop the gluten". The kneading does make the dough very different from the dough for pie crust. I tried kneading, tossing, rolling pin, and machine and honestly only difference seems to be time. End result is still "The sticky dough is now less sticky" except amount of mess and time to do it is different... > There are rumors that letting the dough rise in a refrigerator generates good, additional yeast flavor. Also, there are many varieties of yeast, and some make more and/or better flavor than others. I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough. Maybe if I tried it side by side or something...

AlbertCory 4y ago
This calls out for the Triangle Test! Two the same, one different, and you have to pick the outlier.
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> I might have not discerning enough taste but I honestly can't tell between 1 day or 2 day dough I do sourdough, so I use a levain not a dry yeast, but I have done many 2-day doughs (48 hours rest in the fridge) and many 1-day doughs (24 hours in the fridge), and yes, I can easily tell the difference, and I prefer the 2-day dough, and will always do that timeline when schedule permits. Serious eats reached similar conclusions: https://www.seriouseats.com/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-let-my-dough-cold-ferment https://www.seriouseats.com/the-pizza-lab-how-long-should-i-... NB thier "day 1" is same day: "Each day (including the first before it went in the fridge), I pulled out a 6-ounce chunk of it... and baked it" So what I call a "two-day dough" with about 48 hours in the fridge, is what they call "day 3", which isn't wrong: Thursday, Friday, Saturday are 3 days; Thursday afternoon to to Saturday afternoon is 2 days. Dough made on Thursday rests for 2 days before Saturday, and Saturday is the third day. I agree with them on the dough that rested 24 hours or less though - "tight, small-holed structure ... The flavor of the crumb was ... one dimensional". It is spongy and bready. Not bad, just bland.
- graycat 4y ago
  I'd like to try some yeast that gives more flavor than the Fleischmann's <i>active dry</i> yeast I use. But, I don't want to invest time or effort looking for a yeast with "more flavor"!! I've heard claims that the usual US yeast is of strains selected for the US bread industry and where the main objective is a reliable, big, fast rise with little or no flavor! Sooooo, again, the US goes for some high industrial productivity with little attention to artisan considerations!!!
graycat 4y ago
> I'm worried that "just" mixing it with flour and water might've created pockets when dough is saltier and kill it or just be non-uniform I omitted some details on this point: Yes, adding the (active dry) yeast and the salt directly to the dry flour would also have me worry about "non-uniform". Sooo, I try to have steps that promise to give a nice uniform distribution of the yeast and salt ...: I don't try to get the yeast to grow or generate CO2 before it is mixed with the flour and is set aside to rise. Instead, I put the (active dry) yeast in the 650 ml of water just to soften. So, it is plenty wet, starts with plenty of water, when it is mixed in with the flour. I suspect that this step, to soften the yeast, is not necessary, to give it a drink of water, enough to soften it, is useless and pointless. Then, just before combining the water and yeast in the water with the flour, I add the salt to the water and yeast and mix it in. Sooo, the salt is nicely uniform in the water, and the yeast has a good start on being uniform in the water. Then, in goes the ~2/3rds of the flour. These ingredients can be mixed with a spoon and are still essentially a liquid. And I do that -- use the spoon to mix the mixture into what definitely looks like everything is uniformly distributed. Soooo, this spoon mixing is likely doing a good job achieving uniform distributions of the water, yeast, and salt. Then I add the remaining ~1/3rd of the flour. Now the mixture is too stiff to mix well with a spoon. Sooo, I just do a little mixing. At this point, the flour is NOT, is no longer, nicely uniformly mixed with the water, salt, and yeast. Just from an accident, I discovered that it can be good, for the final texture, to let this mixture rise some. Actually this rise step is optional. Then on to the kneading: Coat the outside surface with some flour so that your fingers don't get too sticky with the dough. Then, for the kneading, press the dough out some, enough to be able to fold it in half. Then, fold it in half, and repeat -- press, fold, press, fold .... During this, may have to add a little loose flour to the outside surface to keep too much dough sticking to your fingers. Here are, with this kneading work, sure, "developing the gluten", etc. But to me what is more important, are achieving a nice uniform distribution of the water, yeast, and salt with the flour. That is, you can pretty well tell that the water is uniformly distributed in the flour. Soooo, since, from the first efforts with the yeast and salt in the water, the yeast and salt are already uniformly distributed in the water, and now the water is uniformly distributed with the flour, no doubt the water brought along the yeast and salt uniformly and now the salt and yeast are ALSO uniformly distributed with the flour, thus, addressing your concerns! I omitted all that but include it here!