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Ask HN: How to build F-You Skills

72 points by lakevieew 4y ago

The past few months have been stressful for most people in the tech industry owing to mass layoffs everywhere. Luckily, I survived the layoffs at my company. But I was very anxious during the period it was announced and it affected my mental health quite a bit. However, on talking to a few other engineers at my company, I realized not everyone was as stressed. They are confident in their skills to get a new equivalent job which would easily support their current lifestyle, even in the current market. They have what I would call, "F-You Skills - Enough skills to know that you would never have to worry about money in your life", a spin on the more commonly known term "F-You Money" [1]. I was wondering if HN users ever think of their own skills in this context. If yes, how should one go about building these skills. To be clear, I am not talking about interviewing skills, which are also equally important. But I am more interested in technical skills that people believe will easily fetch them "decent money" [2] in any scenario in the short term future. [1] F-You Money means "Enough money to leave one's job, etc. and enjoy the lifestyle of one's choice" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fuck_you_money [2] not insane money to retire early, but good enough to support their current lifestyle.

mjfl 4y ago
start your own company
- scarface74 4y ago
  This is statistically the worse advice you can give anyone. A new grad working at any BigTech company could be more secure in a few years.
  - mjfl 4y ago
    and you won't get FU skill or FU money. I answered the question.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You can definitely get FU money by making $160K+ straight out of college up to a quarter million a year plus three years later. How much do you think most people make “starting their own business?”
      - mjfl 4y ago
        first of all no one's making $160k right out of college. Second of all, no, that's not even FU money. Maybe after a 20 year career, yeah you can retire well.
        scarface74 4y ago
        That’s the return offer one of the interns I mentored got when they came back after they graduated. They had no reason to lie to me. They work remotely and decided to move back in with their parents. But even if they didn’t, they could live some place cheaply. I don’t work for some hip non profitable startup surviving off of VC money either. These are standard offers - go to levels.fyi and see what the starting wage is for the BigTech companies are in America. Some of the younger cohort who are just coming out of college getting FAANG jobs (including the one I work for) are talking about FIRE (financially independent retire early). They are saving/investing $50K+ a year.
        mjfl 4y ago
        It's annoying to argue, but (1) that's an anecdote, not data, (2) levels.fyi is a biased sample of people obsessed with / want to brag about their compensation (like you, because even though this post was about FU 'skills' you started arguing about comp), (3) FU money is in the single digit millions at least, if not $10 million, like I said you may get to that level after 10-20 years with good investments, but it's really not guaranteed. For a startup it's even less guaranteed, but you will certainly get much more than that ($10s of millions at least), faster (5-10 years) if you have a reasonably successful exit. Of course billions if you are a unicorn, so a nice fat tail of upside. (4) This post was about FU skills and not FU money, and the difference between startups and big corps is even starker for that. At big corps you barely do anything for the first two years you get hired, but at startups you are working on something mission critical from the start. It's a much deeper experience, skill-wise. There's really no comparison. So if you're goal is FU skills, you'd get it at a startup much more than a big corp without question.
        4y ago
theandrewbailey 4y ago
Java and .NET aren't fashionable, but internal apps for many businesses use them. You probably won't use them at cutting edge startups, but they will pay the bills.
- larrik 4y ago
  You can definitely use them at NYC startups. Very different market vs SV.
Qtips87 4y ago
I found out that the most important skills in the IT industry is the bullshit skill. That's the kind of skill you need to build.
- giantg2 4y ago
  I agree. I strongly suspect the people telling OP they aren't worried about finding another job are bullshitting him. Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too. If that's the case, then mission accomplished. It seems that OP's root goal is to avoid the crippling anxiety and stress. Convincing yourself that it's not a problem -- even if it is -- also accomplishes that. Maybe it's not the best, but you're going to get laid off (or not) regardless of whatever anxiety or stress you feel leading up to that point. Better to just not feel the stress in the first place. Really, though, is it that hard for you to believe that no one could feel confident in their skills such that they believe that they'd still be able to find a job during an economic downturn? It seems a little nonsensical to take that position.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      I guess I should have said most people. I'm sure there are some high performers who aren't worried. I would think most average folks would be the ones who are concerned. I know I am.
  - rajeshp1986 4y ago
    on the contrary, I have seen people BSing their way be more insecure about their job during layoffs. During the layoffs its mostly strategic decision taken not just by your immediate boss but by CEOs or VP levels and managing up might not save your ass.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    I’ve worked for 26 years across 8 jobs - 6 since 2008. It’s never taken me longer than a month to get a job.
xrayarx 4y ago
From my experience, people who don’t have to worry are either have to maintain legacy stuff nobody else wants to do or they are cutting edge people working on the latest and greatest. So my advice, build your skillset on either one of those.
markus_zhang 4y ago
It really depends on financial, family and characteristics. For me I'm always worried about financials unless I'm fully covered, which is impossible unless some how I got two millions by wind.
not_the_fda 4y ago
1. Live below your means. 2. Have 6+ months living expenses in cash equivalent. 3. Build retirement / investment savings. 4. Build skills and be able to demonstrate you can ship product. I've seen many co-workers get laid off in my career, they all landed back on their feet.
- WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
  >1. Live below your means. Take this seriously. Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund. In time you'll have enough money to not fear a job loss. There's a lot of freedom in that. Keep in mind that most of the stuff you want ends up in the trash or on some shelf collecting dust. So, think twice about what you buy.
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    > Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund. That depends on what you eventually want to use the money for. Don't put your 6 month emergency fund in stocks or index funds! If you get laid off along with everyone else, stocks will be down, and that means the money you set aside for an emergency is gone!
    - WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
      Good point, a six month emergency fund needs to be easy to access and in a safe savings' place.
- mud_dauber 4y ago
  Agreed, plus: 5. Be a gracious human being regardless of context. Memories are long-term things.
- bokohut 4y ago
  For those seeking official sources of direction which include these points and more I highly encourage starting with the basics of financial management. While these basics lead into many other areas of complex understanding always start with the basics. This one college class guided me more than any other outside of my career path of software development and I still have that college book. Financial management should be taught starting in elementary school but getting it into high school curriculums is good a start. "In the last two years, five states — Ohio, Mississippi, North Carolina, Nebraska and Rhode Island — passed legislation requiring that students take a full semester standalone personal finance education course in high school, doubling the total number of states with such a mandate."
oldspleen 4y ago
The only skill you'll ever need is this: dazzle your audience w/ facts;else, baffle them w/ BS.
faangiq 4y ago
If you can code and speak decently well, you already have this.
chasd00 4y ago
1. develop a good professional network. that's the best F-You skill you can ever have IMO. You want to be in a position where if you get laid off you make a phone call while walking out and have another job that very day. You can start this as simply as messaging people you work with or use to work with on linkedin.
awb 4y ago
I’ve been developing since Middle School and got steadily promoted until 2008 when I was laid off during the economic collapse. I applied to dozens of companies and couldn’t get a response, or if I did they said hiring was paused. So, I started my own web dev company and grew it from myself to 20 full time employees in ~4 years before selling it. I thought I had FU skills back in 2008 and maybe I did, but it was no match for the macro economic climate. The fallback might not be another full time job, but instead freelancing or starting your own company. The thing that helped me the most was building a “FU Network”. Keep in touch with past coworkers and clients and do good work consistently. They were there for me when I needed them most.
- ipnon 4y ago
  I have found the ability to consistently make my own dollar, even if it is a pittance, makes me a more attractive candidate than most. I’ve never had a runaway business success, but the acumen needed set all of a money making operation in motion sets me apart. Hopefully they become profitable so that formal employment is no longer needed, but in the meanwhile it’s kept food on the table by the ordinary means.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
Good reputation and a healthy network. Having the skills to do the technical work is only part of the answer. I've met a lot of brilliant programmers in my career who were not good at following through on commitments, delivering work, working with others, or leaving old workplaces without burning bridges. On the other hand, I've known a lot of good-but-not-great programmers who were great to work with, made sure they got their work done to good standards, worked hard to overcome skill gaps or looming deadlines when necessary, and left a good impression everywhere they went. The latter group (good reputation, good communication, good networking) will always have a list of people happy to hire them back. That's what you want. Also, avoid the trap of thinking that social skills are "bullshit" or other cynical dismissals. Business is more than just writing code and avoiding peers. Results are delivered by teams, not individuals. Knowing how to be a good team member is a crucial skill.
- jen729w 4y ago
  I'm a tech generalist and this is so so right. If I could sum it up in a sentence it would be "be more helpful than everyone else". Be the person that (generally) says yes, not no. Stretch your boundaries a little, chip in and help even if it's not strictly your job. Share your knowledge. Be friendly and open. Do what you said you'd do when you said you'd do it. That last point is so obvious as to be inane but we all know people who don't do it. On the flip side, don't be that person who loses their shit when something goes wrong. Don't be the one who is always complaining that "this place is [some negative emotion]". Don't be the one who doesn't do some piece of work on a point of order even though someone else is depending on the result. Everyone hears about those people, and everyone avoids them. Life's too short to work with someone like that, even if they're technically amazing. I live in a fairly small Australian city and there are circles of people who just seem to follow each other around. Being in one of those circles -- which are informal, to be clear -- is invaluable. You get there by being a) good at what you do and b) really easy to work with. The last time I got a job by searching a contract jobs website was in 2007. Everything since then has been because of who I know. Addendum: this takes time, obviously. You're building a reputation. I'm 46. You can't do this overnight but, that said, I took a grad in 2021 and she was everything I've said is good and she's already "in the crew".
- 4y ago
svnt 4y ago
Walk through the scenario in detail like it just happened to you. Spend a Friday afternoon convincing yourself you were laid off, and spend the weekend processing and planning your next steps. By Monday you might wish you had been. It is less frightening if you can go through the motions and see all the other opportunity.
davidham 4y ago
Agree with all the advice to grow your savings. I would also add: be intentional about what kind of work you want to do. Seek out this work at your current employer. It's easy to go with the flow and end up doing vague or undifferentiated work, just because no one is looking out for your personal development. Then if you get laid off, or quit, your skills aren't as fresh. Think about your own skills and professional goals, and seek opportunities, at your current or prospective employer, that will help you achieve those goals. I also agree with all the advice to be kind.
w10-1 4y ago
Skills won't save you from uncertainty or anxiety. Neither will experience, education, politics (bullshitting or networking), etc. Neither will income or savings or assets. The only thing that actually helps is to not amplify your emotional reactions, and instead encourage them to quiesce. The standard cognitive approaches are to consider yourself lucky (by thinking of those less lucky), or to see the situation as transitory, or just distract yourself. However, cognitive approaches are the cart leading the horse; it's more direct to pay attention to the emotion until it dissolves. More broadly, there are plenty of less dynamic industries, where loyalty matters most and you get security. But you chose tech typically to make a certain kind of difference, and it's worth the risk and anxiety. You're part of the community only after you've been through the suffering and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :)
- chitowneats 4y ago
  > and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :) This was the missing piece for me during the first decade of my career. It's broadly applicable to most human endeavors.
kelnos 4y ago
I do feel that I have "FU Skills", and probably have for a good 10+ years (I'm in my early 40s now). However, getting jobs is more than that. Or, rather, getting and keeping a job is more than that, and that's where I worry I'm lacking sometimes. While I wouldn't flat-out say I don't work well with others, my patience has gradually gotten worse and worse over the years. At my last company, I think I likely developed a reputation as someone who preferred to isolate himself, someone who should be exempt from any established company processes (stuff I always felt hamstrung me), someone who prefers to just be given a thorny problem and then left alone, unaccountable, until it's done. Certainly what I do (and how I prefer to work) can have value, but it has less and less value as a company grows and relies more on predictability and consistency to get work done. Over the past year and half or so, a lot of the longer-tenured folks (including me) left the company I was working at. I've kept track of where a lot of my former colleagues have gone, including those who were (and still are) in management positions, and sometimes I question how many of those people would really want to hire me at their new company. While I do good work, I could see them thinking that I can be hard to work with at times, or that I might not mesh well with the rest of their team. It's possible I'm coming down too hard on myself, and it's not that bad. But it's something to consider: having technical skills is great, but it's not the whole picture when it comes to being easily employable. As to the root of your issue, the stress and anxiety when things are bad, I think the best thing to do is remove external control over your destiny. Live well within your means, and save as much money as you can. If you have enough savings so that being unemployed for a year or more isn't going to put a strain on your finances or require you to change your lifestyle, then that should reduce your anxiety level quite a bit.
- pontilanda 4y ago
  Are you me? This is uncannily like my experience.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  At least you recognize this issue and can expressly mention it if you ever need to lean on someone, detailing that you identified and are working to correct the problem.
- 4y ago
rr808 4y ago
Its not something you can change easily but in general you need to be regularly interviewing and changing jobs. I stayed in the same company for 10 years, never interviewing anywhere and then I got laid off. Its nearly impossible to find work when you dont know how to leetcode or sell yourself or be comfortable asking around people you know for job leads. I think its the people who switch jobs every year or two that are most comfortable finding the next one. OTOH people who have been doing this for 10 years have never seen a bad job market so maybe they have confidence when they shouldn't have.
ryandrake 4y ago
I think a lot of younger people in the workforce today have never witnessed a bear market or a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash and to a lesser extent the 2008 one. I'd argue that no amount of "skills" or networking are going to help in that macroeconomic environment. Instead, you need an F-you financial cushion because you _will_ be helplessly out of work for an extended period, should another crash come. Make hay while the sun shines.
- prewett 4y ago
  > a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash I lost my job during the .com bust, in 2002, I think. There were plenty of software development jobs, even within my city. I was pretty junior, no CS degree (but I did have a science bachelors). I applied to one or two a week, found a job within three or four months. I was also looking for work sometime around 2009. Again, found a job within four to six months, although I was a little choosier then. Ended up with a contract job at BigCo and they hired me W2 six months or so later. During a downturn contract work can be more available, because BigCo doesn't have a budget for new hires (= can't easily downsize), but part of what contractors are selling is that you can end the contract tomorrow and they say "it's been a pleasure, let me know if you have anything I can help with in the future". All that to say, having lived through the worst downturn, I think a tech downturn where literally nobody is hiring is unlikely. Of course, a financial cushion is always wise.
  - rr808 4y ago
    > found a job within three or four months I think this is unexpected for lots of young developers out there. Lots of devs have experienced nothing other than multiple offers within a few weeks of looking.
boredtofears 4y ago
I think there's a lot of people with "F-Skills" in the workplace right now that don't yet realize this attitude isn't as conducive to stable employment as they think it is.
- convolvatron 4y ago
  a real factor is that with larger organizations focussed primarily on squirting out glue, people with serious programming skills aren't really that useful anymore. everyone hated putting up with the leet coder before, and now they don't really need one. they really just want people to consistently and pleasantly phone it in.
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itronitron 4y ago
Your colleagues are talking themselves up. If their skills are that unique and special then they would have a very difficult time finding a suitable job for two reasons, the primary one being that no recruiter would be able understand the value they bring, and the second one being that relatively few companies would need their skillset.
0xmarcin 4y ago
I guess it all depends on the current demand. I remember a few years ago there was a huge shortage of devops in my area (central europe). Anyone, even with limited experience and skills (often after a few months of bootcamp training) could get a well paying job. Now the craze is about k8s and developing software in the cloud. So in my area if you have solid k8s experience, even with no network and bad rep you will be swimming in the sea of offers (the culture is different here, usually nobody wants to contact your previous employer). On the other hand I am doing boring Java development with microservices. I guess there is too much people with similar skillset, I would probably need to interview for a few months before I land an offer (processes are getting longer and longer even in remote EU areas). Another market trend that I am seeing is security, sec related positions often pay you 30% more than regular dev ones. But this is totally different track that requires a lot of effort to get into.
scarface74 4y ago
Live below your means. If you are a software developer with 3-5 years of experience in any major city in the US, you should be making at least twice the median household income for your area. Live like the median family is living and save your money On another note: I am if not by title now for the first time by what I do a hands on keyboard developer. What I don’t do is coding interviews and definitely not senseless “leetCode”. If an interviewer can’t talk to me like an experienced adult where we can see if my experience can add business value and help you solve your real world issues, we don’t need to be talking. I’m not about to stand there while you judge whether I can reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls on a tightrope. Yes that mentality got me into $BigTech.
inSenCite 4y ago
Seriously do not underestimate the need for a strong network. Having people who trust you and are willing to help you out is a far more potent than having 'X technical skill'. This doesn't necessarily mean going out of your way for 'networking events' or espousing your great and wonderful skills to everyone you meet. It can just mean staying in touch with the people you have enjoyed working with/for. Keeping your skills is still important, and if you're a curious person you'll probably be doing this anyway. But there are a lot of us curious ppl out there...on the other hand, your network will be unique to you. The closest thing to a FU skill though is probably COBOL...
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jcpst 4y ago
There is a more general skillset of being a desirable employee. I had to build this skill up before my tech skills, I have mouths to feed. Another one is knowing how to “hustle”. If you need money, coming up with plans that might not work is way better than just not doing anything. When you start at the bottom, always be planning the next move.
whistl034 4y ago
You don’t want to specialize without great care. I started as a UNIX admin in 1985. I learned a lot about networking at that first job, and later on, took a job as Wide Area Network engineer at large org. That job was challenging, but not as rewarding, because you could only brag about your feats at work with other WAN guys. Nobody else knew what you were talking about. Everyone else soon tired of the gobbledygook. I went back to being a Linux Sr Admin after 10 years after burning out, and eventually found a good gig where we are appreciated for the value we provide the organization.
jawns 4y ago
I prefer not to call it "F-You Money" or an "F-You Mindset." Instead, I like to think of it in terms of having the ability to walk away with your head held high, rather than your middle finger held high. In other words, when they take the low ground, you continue to take the high ground -- right on out the door. To do this, I think most people can rely on two objective values and one psychological one. The two objective values are: 1) knowing what you're worth in the current market (e.g. by regularly interviewing, even when you're not actively looking), and 2) having sufficient savings to cover your expenses until your next job starts. The psychological value is harder to work out, but it has to do with developing a clear sense of your own self-worth and identifying the sort of treatment within the workplace that you will and will not tolerate. I don't mean acting like a prima donna and viewing certain work as beneath you. I mean stuff like if a toxic boss is fundamentally mistreating you, or if you're promised a certain set of working hours or working conditions and then find out that it was an empty promise.
gptadmirer 4y ago
- Don't think much about what you can't control. Focus on what you can control - As long as you have healthy body, healthy mind, healthy spirituality, money can always be made - Always be studying - Don't be ashamed to do low paying jobs, i.e, dishwashing, delivery driving - Don't follow consumerism. Don't have credit card debt. Don't have student loan debt. Don't have mortgage. If you do, and you can't pay it off, just let it be. Escape to another country, be undocumented, build a new life - Tell your wife and kids that they need to be ready leave you to a better person that can take care of them if things go south Basically, just have the attitude "It is what it is, I tried my best". A lot of our problems in life are because we want this and that. We want a nice house, we want a nice car, we want a beautiful wife, we want kids, we want good career, we want a nice vacation, we want the latest phone, etc. Get rid of your current life style, or just have the attitude "eh, this thing can be gone and I will be okay". Those aren't that important. Nothing lasts forever. In the end, things happened. Of course, modern society will break down if all of us think and have this kind of freedom. Society is built upon hard labors of those who have chains like a mortgage. But you do you. Neither you nor society is all that important. Forget about all of those pressure.
BigRedDog1669 4y ago
F-You skills are not technical in nature (above a certain level of competence and willingness to work that most people in tech jobs have). They are people skills and a basic safety net. For me they seem to be: 1. Having an emergency fund and plan that can last you 6-9 months if you get fired or burnt out. Think about your expenses and get rid of ones that you don't want. Plan out if you'd need to downsize some things or make changes. Having a good buffer will help you be less stressed out if your work gets really shitty (you can quit) or if you get fired (you won't be wondering how to pay rent while interviewing). 2. Being generally pleasant at work. 3. Don't spread stress and bad feelings. If you are stressed out and someone asks for help, help them or tell them when you can in the future in a positive way. Don't complain about things over and over. 4. Keep loosely in touch with people you got along with at jobs, you might be able to help each other in the future. 5. Be willing to grind to get a job if your network can't help you in the future. Start practicing interview questions and applying when you notice a lot of frustration in a job, not just when have 100% decided to leave. This will get you prepared and also can help you feel agency that might make you realize you don't want to leave the job. 6. Work on your psychology to gain confidence. You deserve to have a decent life as much as anyone. Your work or pay isn't a reflection of your value, but if you enjoy the work, that's great, it doesn't always happen.
ge96 4y ago
not there yet but my goal is to create side income to match my basic needs I have the fear though due to debt
User23 4y ago
One obvious skill is money management. Anyone who has been at a tech company with competitive compensation for at least a year and doesn't have a minimum of one to two months of runway without unemployment, and far more with, is objectively bad at personal finance and needs to immediately shore up that skill. Also, realize that the burnt out bum shooting up and shitting out on the street in San Francisco literally has F-you money. It's not really that admirable a goal. You should instead be figuring out what you can do to be useful to others. As an employee, that means being useful to employers. As an entrepreneur that means being useful to some subset of the population at large. Generally speaking programming proficiency will get you a life of relative comfort, and reliably has through the past several economic downturns. There are lots of ways to specialize if that's what you're interested in. For example SRE skills are in generally wide demand.
Stealthisbook 4y ago
I worked with some telecom techs who could've literally written their own ticket to some extent just because they knew how to deal with extremely esoteric local problems. They were blue collar guys who stuck with their boss come what may because they were buds but when he left the company... they all eventually evaporated.
cudgy 4y ago
The most effective Fyou skill is the skill to live minimally and avoid copying the spending habits of your peers.

72 points by lakevieew 4y ago

mjfl 4y ago

start your own company

scarface74 4y ago
This is statistically the worse advice you can give anyone. A new grad working at any BigTech company could be more secure in a few years.
- mjfl 4y ago
  and you won't get FU skill or FU money. I answered the question.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You can definitely get FU money by making $160K+ straight out of college up to a quarter million a year plus three years later. How much do you think most people make “starting their own business?”
    - mjfl 4y ago
      first of all no one's making $160k right out of college. Second of all, no, that's not even FU money. Maybe after a 20 year career, yeah you can retire well.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        That’s the return offer one of the interns I mentored got when they came back after they graduated. They had no reason to lie to me. They work remotely and decided to move back in with their parents. But even if they didn’t, they could live some place cheaply. I don’t work for some hip non profitable startup surviving off of VC money either. These are standard offers - go to levels.fyi and see what the starting wage is for the BigTech companies are in America. Some of the younger cohort who are just coming out of college getting FAANG jobs (including the one I work for) are talking about FIRE (financially independent retire early). They are saving/investing $50K+ a year.
        mjfl 4y ago
        It's annoying to argue, but (1) that's an anecdote, not data, (2) levels.fyi is a biased sample of people obsessed with / want to brag about their compensation (like you, because even though this post was about FU 'skills' you started arguing about comp), (3) FU money is in the single digit millions at least, if not $10 million, like I said you may get to that level after 10-20 years with good investments, but it's really not guaranteed. For a startup it's even less guaranteed, but you will certainly get much more than that ($10s of millions at least), faster (5-10 years) if you have a reasonably successful exit. Of course billions if you are a unicorn, so a nice fat tail of upside. (4) This post was about FU skills and not FU money, and the difference between startups and big corps is even starker for that. At big corps you barely do anything for the first two years you get hired, but at startups you are working on something mission critical from the start. It's a much deeper experience, skill-wise. There's really no comparison. So if you're goal is FU skills, you'd get it at a startup much more than a big corp without question.
        4y ago

theandrewbailey 4y ago

Java and .NET aren't fashionable, but internal apps for many businesses use them. You probably won't use them at cutting edge startups, but they will pay the bills.

larrik 4y ago
You can definitely use them at NYC startups. Very different market vs SV.

Qtips87 4y ago

I found out that the most important skills in the IT industry is the bullshit skill. That's the kind of skill you need to build.

giantg2 4y ago
I agree. I strongly suspect the people telling OP they aren't worried about finding another job are bullshitting him. Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > Or in some cases, maybe their egos have them believing it too. If that's the case, then mission accomplished. It seems that OP's root goal is to avoid the crippling anxiety and stress. Convincing yourself that it's not a problem -- even if it is -- also accomplishes that. Maybe it's not the best, but you're going to get laid off (or not) regardless of whatever anxiety or stress you feel leading up to that point. Better to just not feel the stress in the first place. Really, though, is it that hard for you to believe that no one could feel confident in their skills such that they believe that they'd still be able to find a job during an economic downturn? It seems a little nonsensical to take that position.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    I guess I should have said most people. I'm sure there are some high performers who aren't worried. I would think most average folks would be the ones who are concerned. I know I am.
- rajeshp1986 4y ago
  on the contrary, I have seen people BSing their way be more insecure about their job during layoffs. During the layoffs its mostly strategic decision taken not just by your immediate boss but by CEOs or VP levels and managing up might not save your ass.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I’ve worked for 26 years across 8 jobs - 6 since 2008. It’s never taken me longer than a month to get a job.

xrayarx 4y ago

From my experience, people who don’t have to worry are either have to maintain legacy stuff nobody else wants to do or they are cutting edge people working on the latest and greatest. So my advice, build your skillset on either one of those.

markus_zhang 4y ago

It really depends on financial, family and characteristics. For me I'm always worried about financials unless I'm fully covered, which is impossible unless some how I got two millions by wind.

not_the_fda 4y ago

1. Live below your means. 2. Have 6+ months living expenses in cash equivalent. 3. Build retirement / investment savings. 4. Build skills and be able to demonstrate you can ship product. I've seen many co-workers get laid off in my career, they all landed back on their feet.

WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
>1. Live below your means. Take this seriously. Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund. In time you'll have enough money to not fear a job loss. There's a lot of freedom in that. Keep in mind that most of the stuff you want ends up in the trash or on some shelf collecting dust. So, think twice about what you buy.
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  > Make sure you invest the surplus cash in an index fund. That depends on what you eventually want to use the money for. Don't put your 6 month emergency fund in stocks or index funds! If you get laid off along with everyone else, stocks will be down, and that means the money you set aside for an emergency is gone!
  - WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
    Good point, a six month emergency fund needs to be easy to access and in a safe savings' place.
mud_dauber 4y ago
Agreed, plus: 5. Be a gracious human being regardless of context. Memories are long-term things.
bokohut 4y ago
For those seeking official sources of direction which include these points and more I highly encourage starting with the basics of financial management. While these basics lead into many other areas of complex understanding always start with the basics. This one college class guided me more than any other outside of my career path of software development and I still have that college book. Financial management should be taught starting in elementary school but getting it into high school curriculums is good a start. "In the last two years, five states — Ohio, Mississippi, North Carolina, Nebraska and Rhode Island — passed legislation requiring that students take a full semester standalone personal finance education course in high school, doubling the total number of states with such a mandate."

oldspleen 4y ago

The only skill you'll ever need is this: dazzle your audience w/ facts;else, baffle them w/ BS.

faangiq 4y ago

If you can code and speak decently well, you already have this.

chasd00 4y ago

1. develop a good professional network. that's the best F-You skill you can ever have IMO. You want to be in a position where if you get laid off you make a phone call while walking out and have another job that very day. You can start this as simply as messaging people you work with or use to work with on linkedin.

awb 4y ago

I’ve been developing since Middle School and got steadily promoted until 2008 when I was laid off during the economic collapse. I applied to dozens of companies and couldn’t get a response, or if I did they said hiring was paused. So, I started my own web dev company and grew it from myself to 20 full time employees in ~4 years before selling it. I thought I had FU skills back in 2008 and maybe I did, but it was no match for the macro economic climate. The fallback might not be another full time job, but instead freelancing or starting your own company. The thing that helped me the most was building a “FU Network”. Keep in touch with past coworkers and clients and do good work consistently. They were there for me when I needed them most.

ipnon 4y ago
I have found the ability to consistently make my own dollar, even if it is a pittance, makes me a more attractive candidate than most. I’ve never had a runaway business success, but the acumen needed set all of a money making operation in motion sets me apart. Hopefully they become profitable so that formal employment is no longer needed, but in the meanwhile it’s kept food on the table by the ordinary means.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

Good reputation and a healthy network. Having the skills to do the technical work is only part of the answer. I've met a lot of brilliant programmers in my career who were not good at following through on commitments, delivering work, working with others, or leaving old workplaces without burning bridges. On the other hand, I've known a lot of good-but-not-great programmers who were great to work with, made sure they got their work done to good standards, worked hard to overcome skill gaps or looming deadlines when necessary, and left a good impression everywhere they went. The latter group (good reputation, good communication, good networking) will always have a list of people happy to hire them back. That's what you want. Also, avoid the trap of thinking that social skills are "bullshit" or other cynical dismissals. Business is more than just writing code and avoiding peers. Results are delivered by teams, not individuals. Knowing how to be a good team member is a crucial skill.

jen729w 4y ago
I'm a tech generalist and this is so so right. If I could sum it up in a sentence it would be "be more helpful than everyone else". Be the person that (generally) says yes, not no. Stretch your boundaries a little, chip in and help even if it's not strictly your job. Share your knowledge. Be friendly and open. Do what you said you'd do when you said you'd do it. That last point is so obvious as to be inane but we all know people who don't do it. On the flip side, don't be that person who loses their shit when something goes wrong. Don't be the one who is always complaining that "this place is [some negative emotion]". Don't be the one who doesn't do some piece of work on a point of order even though someone else is depending on the result. Everyone hears about those people, and everyone avoids them. Life's too short to work with someone like that, even if they're technically amazing. I live in a fairly small Australian city and there are circles of people who just seem to follow each other around. Being in one of those circles -- which are informal, to be clear -- is invaluable. You get there by being a) good at what you do and b) really easy to work with. The last time I got a job by searching a contract jobs website was in 2007. Everything since then has been because of who I know. Addendum: this takes time, obviously. You're building a reputation. I'm 46. You can't do this overnight but, that said, I took a grad in 2021 and she was everything I've said is good and she's already "in the crew".
4y ago

svnt 4y ago

Walk through the scenario in detail like it just happened to you. Spend a Friday afternoon convincing yourself you were laid off, and spend the weekend processing and planning your next steps. By Monday you might wish you had been. It is less frightening if you can go through the motions and see all the other opportunity.

davidham 4y ago

Agree with all the advice to grow your savings. I would also add: be intentional about what kind of work you want to do. Seek out this work at your current employer. It's easy to go with the flow and end up doing vague or undifferentiated work, just because no one is looking out for your personal development. Then if you get laid off, or quit, your skills aren't as fresh. Think about your own skills and professional goals, and seek opportunities, at your current or prospective employer, that will help you achieve those goals. I also agree with all the advice to be kind.

w10-1 4y ago

Skills won't save you from uncertainty or anxiety. Neither will experience, education, politics (bullshitting or networking), etc. Neither will income or savings or assets. The only thing that actually helps is to not amplify your emotional reactions, and instead encourage them to quiesce. The standard cognitive approaches are to consider yourself lucky (by thinking of those less lucky), or to see the situation as transitory, or just distract yourself. However, cognitive approaches are the cart leading the horse; it's more direct to pay attention to the emotion until it dissolves. More broadly, there are plenty of less dynamic industries, where loyalty matters most and you get security. But you chose tech typically to make a certain kind of difference, and it's worth the risk and anxiety. You're part of the community only after you've been through the suffering and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :)

chitowneats 4y ago
> and understand how quickly it can all go up in smoke :) This was the missing piece for me during the first decade of my career. It's broadly applicable to most human endeavors.

kelnos 4y ago

I do feel that I have "FU Skills", and probably have for a good 10+ years (I'm in my early 40s now). However, getting jobs is more than that. Or, rather, getting and keeping a job is more than that, and that's where I worry I'm lacking sometimes. While I wouldn't flat-out say I don't work well with others, my patience has gradually gotten worse and worse over the years. At my last company, I think I likely developed a reputation as someone who preferred to isolate himself, someone who should be exempt from any established company processes (stuff I always felt hamstrung me), someone who prefers to just be given a thorny problem and then left alone, unaccountable, until it's done. Certainly what I do (and how I prefer to work) can have value, but it has less and less value as a company grows and relies more on predictability and consistency to get work done. Over the past year and half or so, a lot of the longer-tenured folks (including me) left the company I was working at. I've kept track of where a lot of my former colleagues have gone, including those who were (and still are) in management positions, and sometimes I question how many of those people would really want to hire me at their new company. While I do good work, I could see them thinking that I can be hard to work with at times, or that I might not mesh well with the rest of their team. It's possible I'm coming down too hard on myself, and it's not that bad. But it's something to consider: having technical skills is great, but it's not the whole picture when it comes to being easily employable. As to the root of your issue, the stress and anxiety when things are bad, I think the best thing to do is remove external control over your destiny. Live well within your means, and save as much money as you can. If you have enough savings so that being unemployed for a year or more isn't going to put a strain on your finances or require you to change your lifestyle, then that should reduce your anxiety level quite a bit.

pontilanda 4y ago
Are you me? This is uncannily like my experience.
soulofmischief 4y ago
At least you recognize this issue and can expressly mention it if you ever need to lean on someone, detailing that you identified and are working to correct the problem.
4y ago

rr808 4y ago

Its not something you can change easily but in general you need to be regularly interviewing and changing jobs. I stayed in the same company for 10 years, never interviewing anywhere and then I got laid off. Its nearly impossible to find work when you dont know how to leetcode or sell yourself or be comfortable asking around people you know for job leads. I think its the people who switch jobs every year or two that are most comfortable finding the next one. OTOH people who have been doing this for 10 years have never seen a bad job market so maybe they have confidence when they shouldn't have.

ryandrake 4y ago

I think a lot of younger people in the workforce today have never witnessed a bear market or a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash and to a lesser extent the 2008 one. I'd argue that no amount of "skills" or networking are going to help in that macroeconomic environment. Instead, you need an F-you financial cushion because you _will_ be helplessly out of work for an extended period, should another crash come. Make hay while the sun shines.

prewett 4y ago
> a real tech downturn, where literally nobody was hiring, like the first dotCom crash I lost my job during the .com bust, in 2002, I think. There were plenty of software development jobs, even within my city. I was pretty junior, no CS degree (but I did have a science bachelors). I applied to one or two a week, found a job within three or four months. I was also looking for work sometime around 2009. Again, found a job within four to six months, although I was a little choosier then. Ended up with a contract job at BigCo and they hired me W2 six months or so later. During a downturn contract work can be more available, because BigCo doesn't have a budget for new hires (= can't easily downsize), but part of what contractors are selling is that you can end the contract tomorrow and they say "it's been a pleasure, let me know if you have anything I can help with in the future". All that to say, having lived through the worst downturn, I think a tech downturn where literally nobody is hiring is unlikely. Of course, a financial cushion is always wise.
- rr808 4y ago
  > found a job within three or four months I think this is unexpected for lots of young developers out there. Lots of devs have experienced nothing other than multiple offers within a few weeks of looking.

boredtofears 4y ago

I think there's a lot of people with "F-Skills" in the workplace right now that don't yet realize this attitude isn't as conducive to stable employment as they think it is.

convolvatron 4y ago
a real factor is that with larger organizations focussed primarily on squirting out glue, people with serious programming skills aren't really that useful anymore. everyone hated putting up with the leet coder before, and now they don't really need one. they really just want people to consistently and pleasantly phone it in.

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itronitron 4y ago

Your colleagues are talking themselves up. If their skills are that unique and special then they would have a very difficult time finding a suitable job for two reasons, the primary one being that no recruiter would be able understand the value they bring, and the second one being that relatively few companies would need their skillset.

0xmarcin 4y ago

I guess it all depends on the current demand. I remember a few years ago there was a huge shortage of devops in my area (central europe). Anyone, even with limited experience and skills (often after a few months of bootcamp training) could get a well paying job. Now the craze is about k8s and developing software in the cloud. So in my area if you have solid k8s experience, even with no network and bad rep you will be swimming in the sea of offers (the culture is different here, usually nobody wants to contact your previous employer). On the other hand I am doing boring Java development with microservices. I guess there is too much people with similar skillset, I would probably need to interview for a few months before I land an offer (processes are getting longer and longer even in remote EU areas). Another market trend that I am seeing is security, sec related positions often pay you 30% more than regular dev ones. But this is totally different track that requires a lot of effort to get into.

scarface74 4y ago

Live below your means. If you are a software developer with 3-5 years of experience in any major city in the US, you should be making at least twice the median household income for your area. Live like the median family is living and save your money On another note: I am if not by title now for the first time by what I do a hands on keyboard developer. What I don’t do is coding interviews and definitely not senseless “leetCode”. If an interviewer can’t talk to me like an experienced adult where we can see if my experience can add business value and help you solve your real world issues, we don’t need to be talking. I’m not about to stand there while you judge whether I can reverse a binary tree on the whiteboard while juggling bowling balls on a tightrope. Yes that mentality got me into $BigTech.

inSenCite 4y ago

Seriously do not underestimate the need for a strong network. Having people who trust you and are willing to help you out is a far more potent than having 'X technical skill'. This doesn't necessarily mean going out of your way for 'networking events' or espousing your great and wonderful skills to everyone you meet. It can just mean staying in touch with the people you have enjoyed working with/for. Keeping your skills is still important, and if you're a curious person you'll probably be doing this anyway. But there are a lot of us curious ppl out there...on the other hand, your network will be unique to you. The closest thing to a FU skill though is probably COBOL...

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jcpst 4y ago

There is a more general skillset of being a desirable employee. I had to build this skill up before my tech skills, I have mouths to feed. Another one is knowing how to “hustle”. If you need money, coming up with plans that might not work is way better than just not doing anything. When you start at the bottom, always be planning the next move.

whistl034 4y ago

You don’t want to specialize without great care. I started as a UNIX admin in 1985. I learned a lot about networking at that first job, and later on, took a job as Wide Area Network engineer at large org. That job was challenging, but not as rewarding, because you could only brag about your feats at work with other WAN guys. Nobody else knew what you were talking about. Everyone else soon tired of the gobbledygook. I went back to being a Linux Sr Admin after 10 years after burning out, and eventually found a good gig where we are appreciated for the value we provide the organization.

jawns 4y ago

I prefer not to call it "F-You Money" or an "F-You Mindset." Instead, I like to think of it in terms of having the ability to walk away with your head held high, rather than your middle finger held high. In other words, when they take the low ground, you continue to take the high ground -- right on out the door. To do this, I think most people can rely on two objective values and one psychological one. The two objective values are: 1) knowing what you're worth in the current market (e.g. by regularly interviewing, even when you're not actively looking), and 2) having sufficient savings to cover your expenses until your next job starts. The psychological value is harder to work out, but it has to do with developing a clear sense of your own self-worth and identifying the sort of treatment within the workplace that you will and will not tolerate. I don't mean acting like a prima donna and viewing certain work as beneath you. I mean stuff like if a toxic boss is fundamentally mistreating you, or if you're promised a certain set of working hours or working conditions and then find out that it was an empty promise.

gptadmirer 4y ago

- Don't think much about what you can't control. Focus on what you can control - As long as you have healthy body, healthy mind, healthy spirituality, money can always be made - Always be studying - Don't be ashamed to do low paying jobs, i.e, dishwashing, delivery driving - Don't follow consumerism. Don't have credit card debt. Don't have student loan debt. Don't have mortgage. If you do, and you can't pay it off, just let it be. Escape to another country, be undocumented, build a new life - Tell your wife and kids that they need to be ready leave you to a better person that can take care of them if things go south Basically, just have the attitude "It is what it is, I tried my best". A lot of our problems in life are because we want this and that. We want a nice house, we want a nice car, we want a beautiful wife, we want kids, we want good career, we want a nice vacation, we want the latest phone, etc. Get rid of your current life style, or just have the attitude "eh, this thing can be gone and I will be okay". Those aren't that important. Nothing lasts forever. In the end, things happened. Of course, modern society will break down if all of us think and have this kind of freedom. Society is built upon hard labors of those who have chains like a mortgage. But you do you. Neither you nor society is all that important. Forget about all of those pressure.

BigRedDog1669 4y ago

F-You skills are not technical in nature (above a certain level of competence and willingness to work that most people in tech jobs have). They are people skills and a basic safety net. For me they seem to be: 1. Having an emergency fund and plan that can last you 6-9 months if you get fired or burnt out. Think about your expenses and get rid of ones that you don't want. Plan out if you'd need to downsize some things or make changes. Having a good buffer will help you be less stressed out if your work gets really shitty (you can quit) or if you get fired (you won't be wondering how to pay rent while interviewing). 2. Being generally pleasant at work. 3. Don't spread stress and bad feelings. If you are stressed out and someone asks for help, help them or tell them when you can in the future in a positive way. Don't complain about things over and over. 4. Keep loosely in touch with people you got along with at jobs, you might be able to help each other in the future. 5. Be willing to grind to get a job if your network can't help you in the future. Start practicing interview questions and applying when you notice a lot of frustration in a job, not just when have 100% decided to leave. This will get you prepared and also can help you feel agency that might make you realize you don't want to leave the job. 6. Work on your psychology to gain confidence. You deserve to have a decent life as much as anyone. Your work or pay isn't a reflection of your value, but if you enjoy the work, that's great, it doesn't always happen.

ge96 4y ago

not there yet but my goal is to create side income to match my basic needs I have the fear though due to debt

User23 4y ago

One obvious skill is money management. Anyone who has been at a tech company with competitive compensation for at least a year and doesn't have a minimum of one to two months of runway without unemployment, and far more with, is objectively bad at personal finance and needs to immediately shore up that skill. Also, realize that the burnt out bum shooting up and shitting out on the street in San Francisco literally has F-you money. It's not really that admirable a goal. You should instead be figuring out what you can do to be useful to others. As an employee, that means being useful to employers. As an entrepreneur that means being useful to some subset of the population at large. Generally speaking programming proficiency will get you a life of relative comfort, and reliably has through the past several economic downturns. There are lots of ways to specialize if that's what you're interested in. For example SRE skills are in generally wide demand.

Stealthisbook 4y ago

I worked with some telecom techs who could've literally written their own ticket to some extent just because they knew how to deal with extremely esoteric local problems. They were blue collar guys who stuck with their boss come what may because they were buds but when he left the company... they all eventually evaporated.

cudgy 4y ago

The most effective Fyou skill is the skill to live minimally and avoid copying the spending habits of your peers.