5 ms·

It's very difficult to go through life being treated with disdain, which is the treatment a lot of nonbinary and transgender people get. Even if you think it's

It's very difficult to go through life being treated with disdain, which is the treatment a lot of nonbinary and transgender people get. Even if you think it's justified, you don't have to be the reason their lives are difficult.

tosc 4y ago
- kingkawn 4y ago
  It ain’t the activists fault society has been so vile to those populations that they had to turn to extreme public instigations to get any attention and subsequent respect
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    "They made me do it!" -- every abuser ever.
    - kingkawn 4y ago
      incoherent comparison, as expected
      - at_a_remove 4y ago
        sverona 4y ago
        One joke.
        at_a_remove 4y ago
        sverona 4y ago
        There are at least three basic formats that the One Joke comes in: 1. "I identify as X." Okay, how should I address you? 2. "X (nonsentient) identifies as Y." Nonsentient objects don't have identities. 3. "X (sentient) identifies as Y." This may or may not be a statement of fact, but if you're using someone else's identity as a punchline, what's that say about you? Your prior comment falls under case 2.
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        Do you show your partner's boyfriend this every time you post "one joke"? Ah shit that's two jokes now...
        sverona 4y ago
        I am, in fact, polyamorous. Do you find that funny?
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        >I am, in fact, polyamorous. Sometimes life imitates memes. >Do you find that funny? Damn, three jokes!
        sverona 4y ago
        I sincerely hope you have a source of meaning in your life that you can tap into instead of making fun of people with different lifestyles on the Internet. Cheers.
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        It's not a "different lifestyle" when you demand we partake in your delusion. Cheers.
  - tosc 4y ago
    > It ain’t the activists fault society has been so vile to those populations This is true. > that they had to turn to extreme public instigations This is false. Activists don’t have to turn to an obviously incoherent ideology, nor do they need to harm people who are not harming them. > to get any attention and subsequent respect They have attention, but they haven’t gained respect. In fact they have reduced it. Activists don’t represent anyone but themselves, and through their actions are harming the very communities that claim to support.
- ppopp 4y ago
  Perhaps it is legitimate to hold that view. I mean, the concept of non-binary requires holding the irrational, non-empirical belief that men and women are loosely defined as a set of sexist stereotypes, rather than sex. They've taken a socially conservative ideal of what women and men should be like (per whatever culture they're in), assumed that this is what actually defines women and men, and decided to carve themselves an opt-out in the form of an extra category. When they probably should be taking a step back and wondering why they hold these rigid definitions of men and women in the first place, and applying some critical thinking.
  - tosc 4y ago
    > I mean, the concept of non-binary requires holding the irrational, non-empirical belief that men and women are loosely defined as a set of sexist stereotypes I don’t think there is anything irrational about the view that gender expression is in part based on stereotypes and social construction. Cross cultural and intergenerational comparisons clearly show that there are cultural differences in how genders are expressed. It is not irrational to believe that some people are drawn to gender expressions not traditionally associated with their biological sex, nor is it irrational to suppose that there is suffering associated with being prevented from doing so, or humiliated or ostracized if they do. What is irrational is to claim that there is no such thing as biological sex, that sex rather than gender is a continuum, and that the only difference between a man and a woman is what someone claims themselves to be.
    - talideon 4y ago
      Except that's not what they claim, at least not in the way you're claiming, which seems deny that there are men and women out there with sex genes other XY and XX and that intersex people don't exist. Because when people claim that "sex is a continuum" it's pointing out that while men and women cluster around having XY and XX chromosomes, the reality is more complicated. People can be intersex, people can have sex gene aneuploidies, people can have male sex genes buy end up developing as females, as can the reverse happen. Such people are a minority, but they do exist, and that's what the spectrum is. And in case you're thinking the numbers are vanishingly small, they're not: intersex people alone are more common than red heads.
at_a_remove 4y ago
- Gabriel_Martin 4y ago
  Based on those questionably real experiences relating to your coworker's pronouns and last name, it kinda seems like you decided in advance to now plant your flag on being standoffish and pretty foul towards people who chose not to act as sex they were assigned at birth, by calling their gender identity "imaginary" when the topic comes up. Which is just prejudice I think? Kind of a pick your battles moment really, are you really going to preemptively be irritated at any mention of nonbinary or trans people forever?
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    At the mention? No. At the having to play along.
    - Gabriel_Martin 4y ago
      Well, this is all based on my perception and feeling, but in this case at least it appeared to be merely at the mention of how this story might relate to nonbinary gender identity. Just my perspective, but you appeared to really jumped at the opportunity to describe their their gender identity as imaginary and liken it to a sexual kink (are kinks imaginary either? IDK). Just seems as if this topic has fallen into the focus of your ire, which I just feel is a bit prejudiced. For you it's at worst an extremely rare, uncomfortable but minor inconvenience to you. But now you jump at this kinda shitty reactivity towards the topic, which must sorta stink for other HN readers who just try to live their lives, but happen have a nonbinary or trans gender identity. IMO you're just piling on in a needlessly irritable way. Just an outsiders perspective. Happy holidays and I hope you have a nice rest of your day, fwiw.
blueflow 4y ago
Is the emotional well-being of people more important than admitting to uncomfortable truths? Should i be able to force you to pretend im not balding?
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  > force you to pretend im not balding Huh, that's an interesting analogy and not one I'd ever really thought about before. After all, there are people with terrible combovers and toupees that most people pretend they don't notice (no offense if that's you, OP). I'm trying to imagine how much "not playing along" you'd have to do before you ended up in HR over it, and I'd think it would have to be quite a bit - certainly just pretending you didn't notice and not agreeing or disagreeing when the guy in question says his hair is completely natural wouldn't be enough.
  - jl6 4y ago
    The hair analogy would be a person feeling distress at having hair, and so shaving it off. They shouldn’t be harassed for doing this, but they would cross a line if they then sought a place in an alopecia support group.
homonculus1 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tosc 4y ago

kingkawn 4y ago
It ain’t the activists fault society has been so vile to those populations that they had to turn to extreme public instigations to get any attention and subsequent respect
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  "They made me do it!" -- every abuser ever.
  - kingkawn 4y ago
    incoherent comparison, as expected
    - at_a_remove 4y ago
      - sverona 4y ago
        One joke.
        at_a_remove 4y ago
        sverona 4y ago
        There are at least three basic formats that the One Joke comes in: 1. "I identify as X." Okay, how should I address you? 2. "X (nonsentient) identifies as Y." Nonsentient objects don't have identities. 3. "X (sentient) identifies as Y." This may or may not be a statement of fact, but if you're using someone else's identity as a punchline, what's that say about you? Your prior comment falls under case 2.
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        Do you show your partner's boyfriend this every time you post "one joke"? Ah shit that's two jokes now...
        sverona 4y ago
        I am, in fact, polyamorous. Do you find that funny?
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        >I am, in fact, polyamorous. Sometimes life imitates memes. >Do you find that funny? Damn, three jokes!
        sverona 4y ago
        I sincerely hope you have a source of meaning in your life that you can tap into instead of making fun of people with different lifestyles on the Internet. Cheers.
        throwawayacc3 4y ago
        It's not a "different lifestyle" when you demand we partake in your delusion. Cheers.
- tosc 4y ago
  > It ain’t the activists fault society has been so vile to those populations This is true. > that they had to turn to extreme public instigations This is false. Activists don’t have to turn to an obviously incoherent ideology, nor do they need to harm people who are not harming them. > to get any attention and subsequent respect They have attention, but they haven’t gained respect. In fact they have reduced it. Activists don’t represent anyone but themselves, and through their actions are harming the very communities that claim to support.
ppopp 4y ago
Perhaps it is legitimate to hold that view. I mean, the concept of non-binary requires holding the irrational, non-empirical belief that men and women are loosely defined as a set of sexist stereotypes, rather than sex. They've taken a socially conservative ideal of what women and men should be like (per whatever culture they're in), assumed that this is what actually defines women and men, and decided to carve themselves an opt-out in the form of an extra category. When they probably should be taking a step back and wondering why they hold these rigid definitions of men and women in the first place, and applying some critical thinking.
- tosc 4y ago
  > I mean, the concept of non-binary requires holding the irrational, non-empirical belief that men and women are loosely defined as a set of sexist stereotypes I don’t think there is anything irrational about the view that gender expression is in part based on stereotypes and social construction. Cross cultural and intergenerational comparisons clearly show that there are cultural differences in how genders are expressed. It is not irrational to believe that some people are drawn to gender expressions not traditionally associated with their biological sex, nor is it irrational to suppose that there is suffering associated with being prevented from doing so, or humiliated or ostracized if they do. What is irrational is to claim that there is no such thing as biological sex, that sex rather than gender is a continuum, and that the only difference between a man and a woman is what someone claims themselves to be.
  - talideon 4y ago
    Except that's not what they claim, at least not in the way you're claiming, which seems deny that there are men and women out there with sex genes other XY and XX and that intersex people don't exist. Because when people claim that "sex is a continuum" it's pointing out that while men and women cluster around having XY and XX chromosomes, the reality is more complicated. People can be intersex, people can have sex gene aneuploidies, people can have male sex genes buy end up developing as females, as can the reverse happen. Such people are a minority, but they do exist, and that's what the spectrum is. And in case you're thinking the numbers are vanishingly small, they're not: intersex people alone are more common than red heads.

at_a_remove 4y ago

Gabriel_Martin 4y ago
Based on those questionably real experiences relating to your coworker's pronouns and last name, it kinda seems like you decided in advance to now plant your flag on being standoffish and pretty foul towards people who chose not to act as sex they were assigned at birth, by calling their gender identity "imaginary" when the topic comes up. Which is just prejudice I think? Kind of a pick your battles moment really, are you really going to preemptively be irritated at any mention of nonbinary or trans people forever?
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  At the mention? No. At the having to play along.
  - Gabriel_Martin 4y ago
    Well, this is all based on my perception and feeling, but in this case at least it appeared to be merely at the mention of how this story might relate to nonbinary gender identity. Just my perspective, but you appeared to really jumped at the opportunity to describe their their gender identity as imaginary and liken it to a sexual kink (are kinks imaginary either? IDK). Just seems as if this topic has fallen into the focus of your ire, which I just feel is a bit prejudiced. For you it's at worst an extremely rare, uncomfortable but minor inconvenience to you. But now you jump at this kinda shitty reactivity towards the topic, which must sorta stink for other HN readers who just try to live their lives, but happen have a nonbinary or trans gender identity. IMO you're just piling on in a needlessly irritable way. Just an outsiders perspective. Happy holidays and I hope you have a nice rest of your day, fwiw.

blueflow 4y ago

Is the emotional well-being of people more important than admitting to uncomfortable truths? Should i be able to force you to pretend im not balding?

commandlinefan 4y ago
> force you to pretend im not balding Huh, that's an interesting analogy and not one I'd ever really thought about before. After all, there are people with terrible combovers and toupees that most people pretend they don't notice (no offense if that's you, OP). I'm trying to imagine how much "not playing along" you'd have to do before you ended up in HR over it, and I'd think it would have to be quite a bit - certainly just pretending you didn't notice and not agreeing or disagreeing when the guy in question says his hair is completely natural wouldn't be enough.
- jl6 4y ago
  The hair analogy would be a person feeling distress at having hair, and so shaving it off. They shouldn’t be harassed for doing this, but they would cross a line if they then sought a place in an alopecia support group.

homonculus1 4y ago

dang 4y ago
We've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html