5 ms·

I agree, "shade tree mechanics" often do disregard environmental considerations. But, they tend to pretty much disregard all laws and regulations, when they're

I agree, "shade tree mechanics" often do disregard environmental considerations. But, they tend to pretty much disregard all laws and regulations, when they're inconvenient for them. Hence the shortcuts to "save time." The question is: what ought to be done about this? I don't think a blanket ban on other than "minor car repairs" is it, but I also don't think the type of person you're talking about here is going to be too fazed by fines and inspectors.

bin_bash 4y ago
I'm just saying the environmental cost is real. I feel people are dismissing it because "it's not legal to dump fluids" when the reality is that it's pretty common—and pretty hazardous at a local level. I think if you banned all automotive work at home (including oil changes) that would reduce the amount of environmental damage like this. It's far easier to catch someone changing oil than dumping it. However there are obvious socioeconomic reasons why I don't think this is something that should be done. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm just pointing out we shouldn't ignore the environment here. Or expect poor people to care about the environment because they very much do not. I know the people that do this and if I challenged them on it they would say "the government pours oil on their own gravel roads to keep the dust down anyways" or "if the government cared about the environment they wouldn't have killed Stanley Meyer" or some other claim to point out perceived hypocrisy.
- mmcgaha 4y ago
  So your argument is that we should enact laws that ban all automotive work at home because some people do not follow the existing laws around dumping motor oil. Do you really not see the flaw in this argument?
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    Every single comment I've posted on this topic (including the one you just replied to) I've been careful to point out that I expressly do not think such laws should exist.
    - mmcgaha 4y ago
      Fair enough. Sometimes I am blindly emotional when I feel like my right to do stuff to my own things on my own property is questioned.
- t_sawyer 4y ago
  How far does this go? If you have a riding lawnmower you have to change the oil in that too. Are we forcing people to spend money to haul their mower to a shop to get the oil changed? ATVs? I'm completely against this. You're expecting poor people to pay for things they can do themselves if they're willing just because a few people dump oil in their weeds at night. Your freon argument doesn't sway me either. Wrecks cause freon dumps all the time. Your neighbor pulling freon out of one car isn't causing that much environment damage. Also: if you're concerned about it, report them.
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    I wonder if the solution here is entirely different. Maybe instead of asking what-ifs per-se we ask, "well, why would someone not do it the proper way." The answer there is, whether justified or not, the current process is too much of a "hassle" (I don't see it as such but for someone dumping motor oil down storm drains for them it apparently is). We can't make them do the current process that is more of a "hassle." So how do we make a more "hassle-free" process? Maybe like garbage, one Wednesday a month, the recycling/garbage company picks up jugs of fluids? We have an existing process, so maybe we just rope one more thing into. The county/city already does garbage pickup and disposal, why not fluids?
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  I realize you're not proposing a solution. That's precisely why I was asking about one. I'd like to see the environment protected while at the same time people retain the right to do repairs on their own vehicles on their own property.
- holbrad 4y ago
  I think we just need to be real that, there are environmental externalities to many many things. Even when we take a good faith look at various issues it's entirely reasonable for other factors to trump environmental concerns. (Moral, economic, social, cultural)
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I think if you banned all automotive work at home (including oil changes) that would reduce the amount of environmental damage like this. Sure, and if you banned all alcohol consumption, then that will reduce the amount of kids damaged by alcohol.[1] Still doesn't mean that banning is an idea worthy of consideration. [1] The negative effects of alcohol on a population is far worse than many other things that are banned, and yet alcohol is not. Many things would get immediately unbanned if the bar was "needs to be more damaging than alcohol"

bin_bash 4y ago

I'm just saying the environmental cost is real. I feel people are dismissing it because "it's not legal to dump fluids" when the reality is that it's pretty common—and pretty hazardous at a local level. I think if you banned all automotive work at home (including oil changes) that would reduce the amount of environmental damage like this. It's far easier to catch someone changing oil than dumping it. However there are obvious socioeconomic reasons why I don't think this is something that should be done. I'm not proposing a solution, I'm just pointing out we shouldn't ignore the environment here. Or expect poor people to care about the environment because they very much do not. I know the people that do this and if I challenged them on it they would say "the government pours oil on their own gravel roads to keep the dust down anyways" or "if the government cared about the environment they wouldn't have killed Stanley Meyer" or some other claim to point out perceived hypocrisy.

mmcgaha 4y ago
So your argument is that we should enact laws that ban all automotive work at home because some people do not follow the existing laws around dumping motor oil. Do you really not see the flaw in this argument?
- bin_bash 4y ago
  Every single comment I've posted on this topic (including the one you just replied to) I've been careful to point out that I expressly do not think such laws should exist.
  - mmcgaha 4y ago
    Fair enough. Sometimes I am blindly emotional when I feel like my right to do stuff to my own things on my own property is questioned.
t_sawyer 4y ago
How far does this go? If you have a riding lawnmower you have to change the oil in that too. Are we forcing people to spend money to haul their mower to a shop to get the oil changed? ATVs? I'm completely against this. You're expecting poor people to pay for things they can do themselves if they're willing just because a few people dump oil in their weeds at night. Your freon argument doesn't sway me either. Wrecks cause freon dumps all the time. Your neighbor pulling freon out of one car isn't causing that much environment damage. Also: if you're concerned about it, report them.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  I wonder if the solution here is entirely different. Maybe instead of asking what-ifs per-se we ask, "well, why would someone not do it the proper way." The answer there is, whether justified or not, the current process is too much of a "hassle" (I don't see it as such but for someone dumping motor oil down storm drains for them it apparently is). We can't make them do the current process that is more of a "hassle." So how do we make a more "hassle-free" process? Maybe like garbage, one Wednesday a month, the recycling/garbage company picks up jugs of fluids? We have an existing process, so maybe we just rope one more thing into. The county/city already does garbage pickup and disposal, why not fluids?
actually_a_dog 4y ago
I realize you're not proposing a solution. That's precisely why I was asking about one. I'd like to see the environment protected while at the same time people retain the right to do repairs on their own vehicles on their own property.
holbrad 4y ago
I think we just need to be real that, there are environmental externalities to many many things. Even when we take a good faith look at various issues it's entirely reasonable for other factors to trump environmental concerns. (Moral, economic, social, cultural)
lelanthran 4y ago
> I think if you banned all automotive work at home (including oil changes) that would reduce the amount of environmental damage like this. Sure, and if you banned all alcohol consumption, then that will reduce the amount of kids damaged by alcohol.[1] Still doesn't mean that banning is an idea worthy of consideration. [1] The negative effects of alcohol on a population is far worse than many other things that are banned, and yet alcohol is not. Many things would get immediately unbanned if the bar was "needs to be more damaging than alcohol"