4 ms·

I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much har

I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much harder to sell _my_ house. If they move in after I do it's plausible that costs me a hundred thousand dollars or more, by no fault of my own. If they're on 10 acre lots with trees where I can't even see it, and my neighbor is just doing reasonable stuff to run a small business on ground with no zoning, who cares? On the other hand I can still hear it, so we might share similar positions on noise after hours.

ponow 4y ago
What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.
- ghaff 4y ago
  >What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Property rights are not absolute--just like free speech is not absolute. You have to pay your property taxes and, as discussed on this thread, there's zoning which may restrict commercial activity in a residential area. There are doubtless other bylaws in a given place related to noise, smells, etc. The government can take a property by eminent domain as well. It's about being reasonable. And what's reasonable on a 10 or 100 acre rural farm is different from what is reasonable in an upscale suburban community with houses on 1/4 acre.
- showerst 4y ago
  > You don't need these laws I don't want to go around proposing a HOA-style contract with every single person in earshot / downwind every time I move, and hope we can come to terms I can afford. > it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too The issue is that some people's concept of "ownership" means "I can do whatever I want on this property, even if it imposes a high cost on others". You can pick your scenario, from "My home, my 3am drum practice" to "My home, my burning of this pile of nuclear waste". There's no magic way of assessing the "true" costs to me by your actions next door, so we need these laws. If you live on more space near less people, then you need less of these laws, maybe none! I understand (and agree) that for every "My neighbors yard is a literal cow pond" there's some Karen who is mortified at the shade of off-white I painted my house. There are also unlimited historical cases of the government misusing these laws to keep poor/minorities out. The reality is there are a lot of selfish assholes out there, and so laws help give you a little recourse when one moves in next door. I don't feel unreasonable saying I want to sleep from 11pm-7am, and be able to sell my house some day with a value based solely on the greater market and what I do to it, not the crazy guy down the street. That said, I live in a very dense city. I'm not moving to rural Alabama and expecting to impose that on anybody 2 miles away.
  - lrvick 4y ago
    Your property value is of no concern to anyone else that just wants to live their lives in their homes. Trying to restrict the non-violent behavior of others is a dick move no matter the lot size. I live in a small lot suburb with roosters and I have been known to angle grind at 3 am. Neighbors say nothing. I say nothing about screaming kids, blaring music, and the dude doing late night Tuba practice. This is just people living life. If you value total silence and no evidence of lifestyle diversity around you, then perhaps rural Alabama is a better fit for you.

ponow 4y ago

What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.

ghaff 4y ago
>What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Property rights are not absolute--just like free speech is not absolute. You have to pay your property taxes and, as discussed on this thread, there's zoning which may restrict commercial activity in a residential area. There are doubtless other bylaws in a given place related to noise, smells, etc. The government can take a property by eminent domain as well. It's about being reasonable. And what's reasonable on a 10 or 100 acre rural farm is different from what is reasonable in an upscale suburban community with houses on 1/4 acre.
showerst 4y ago
> You don't need these laws I don't want to go around proposing a HOA-style contract with every single person in earshot / downwind every time I move, and hope we can come to terms I can afford. > it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too The issue is that some people's concept of "ownership" means "I can do whatever I want on this property, even if it imposes a high cost on others". You can pick your scenario, from "My home, my 3am drum practice" to "My home, my burning of this pile of nuclear waste". There's no magic way of assessing the "true" costs to me by your actions next door, so we need these laws. If you live on more space near less people, then you need less of these laws, maybe none! I understand (and agree) that for every "My neighbors yard is a literal cow pond" there's some Karen who is mortified at the shade of off-white I painted my house. There are also unlimited historical cases of the government misusing these laws to keep poor/minorities out. The reality is there are a lot of selfish assholes out there, and so laws help give you a little recourse when one moves in next door. I don't feel unreasonable saying I want to sleep from 11pm-7am, and be able to sell my house some day with a value based solely on the greater market and what I do to it, not the crazy guy down the street. That said, I live in a very dense city. I'm not moving to rural Alabama and expecting to impose that on anybody 2 miles away.
- lrvick 4y ago
  Your property value is of no concern to anyone else that just wants to live their lives in their homes. Trying to restrict the non-violent behavior of others is a dick move no matter the lot size. I live in a small lot suburb with roosters and I have been known to angle grind at 3 am. Neighbors say nothing. I say nothing about screaming kids, blaring music, and the dude doing late night Tuba practice. This is just people living life. If you value total silence and no evidence of lifestyle diversity around you, then perhaps rural Alabama is a better fit for you.