5 ms·

Home auto repairs are a way for the poor to gain an income and build skills. Large formal garages see that as competition and arrange for these laws to slap it

Home auto repairs are a way for the poor to gain an income and build skills. Large formal garages see that as competition and arrange for these laws to slap it down.

mschuster91 4y ago
> Home auto repairs are a way for the poor to gain an income and build skills. These people, of whom there are less and less every year anyway as modern cars are essentially a mixture of a server farm and a chemical plant on wheels, can always go and rent a dirt cheap plot in an industrial zone, instead of making their profit on the back of neighbors annoyed by someone running a commercial operation in a residential zone.
- akerl_ 4y ago
  Sorry, what? Am I understanding you correctly that your recommendation is for lower income people to rent a plot of land somewhere just so that you don't have to deal with them using a specialty automotive tool in their garage?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > just so that you don't have to deal with them using a specialty automotive tool in their garage? FTFY: so that they don't run a commercial operation causing noise, emissions and traffic in a residential zone. Don't make profit off of just loading off the externality cost of your operation on the back of your neighbors. It's not that hard to grasp.
    - akerl_ 4y ago
      If I'm doing my repairs in my garage, what does it matter to you whether I'm constantly working on my personal cars or other people's cars?
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        Simple: built-in expectations. A residential zone comes with the expectation for everyone buying a property inside the zone that traffic will be the people living there and occasional visitors, that noise and emissions will be kept to the usual amount caused by people living and the likes and that car repairs are limited to stuff like changing your tires. If you're running a commercial shop fixing up cars, you are violating the expectations of a property in a residential zone: your property attracts more vehicle traffic, possibly even from heavy tow trucks, your property emits noise from all the tools or from vehicles running without (or with defective) mufflers, your property emits smells of fuel, chemicals or burning stuff. If you're just fixing up your own car, you cause way less of these emissions, and way less annoyance for your neighbors. In short: your neighbors signed up for peace and quiet guaranteed by the residential zoning, and you are violating that agreement.
        ecshafer 4y ago
        Residential Zones are government inflicted tyranny. A basic car repair garage, a machine shop, coffee shop, barber, etc. basically cause 0 noise. The idea of zoning towns into different districts infringes on people's rights, and is also economically disastrous causing trillions in lost gdp in the US alone. Zoning needs to be abolished, or at minimum drastically relaxed to a more sane system like Japans. I have no issue with my neighbor fixing his car, or charging for it. Why would I?
        mschuster91 4y ago
        > A basic car repair garage, a machine shop, coffee shop, barber, etc. basically cause 0 noise. They attract traffic, pedestrian and vehicular. Vehicles need to be stored somewhere, which means either they abuse and block the street or you have a giant ass parking lot eyesore. > The idea of zoning towns into different districts infringes on people's rights, and is also economically disastrous causing trillions in lost gdp in the US alone. WTF, where do zoning laws infringe on people's rights? Everyone has the freedom to choose where to buy or rent a property, and if you're not fine with living in a residential zone, then buy a property in a mixed use zone! Re-zoning operations are more of an issue, but these usually have to be decided at higher levels of democratically elected governances anyway.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    They're talking about mechanics renting space so they don't have to do in their driveway, it has nothing to do with being poor.
- petodo 4y ago
  So you essentially say work from home should be banned, because that's also "running a commercial operation in a residential zone". If you have problem with noise or chemicals I can understand your concerns, but certainly not for running a commercial operation in a residential zone. Same goes for piano lessons etc. And regarding noise I wonder how are lawnmovers regulated if you have problem with car repair. My grandpa had his own workshop in his own house and can't imagine someone banning him from working from his own house, especially if he lives there longer and run shop longer than any neighbor who moved there.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > So you essentially say work from home should be banned, because that's also "running a commercial operation in a residential zone". No, because working from home doesn't cause negative externalities imposed upon the neighbors - quite the other way around, the fact you're working from home reduces the impact of commuting. > Same goes for piano lessons etc. Unlike repairing a car in a shed with its door open, piano lessons should not cause noise emissions. If you're giving musical lessons outdoors with neighbors being forced to listen, you deserve everything that's coming for you. > And regarding noise I wonder how are lawnmovers regulated if you have problem with car repair. Gas-powered lawnmowers should be banned, and so should any form of leaf blowers, alone for environmental protection. > My grandpa had his own workshop in his own house and can't imagine someone banning him from working from his own house, especially if he lives there longer and run shop longer than any neighbor who moved there. Which is why things such as "grandfathered in" provisions exist. It's fine if you choose on your own to move to an area with someone running a car shop, you knew that there was a car shop, but it's not fine for someone else to move in and run a car shop or other negatively impacting business that ruins other peoples' property.
    - petodo 4y ago
      > No, because working from home doesn't cause negative externalities imposed upon the neighbors - quite the other way around, the fact you're working from home reduces the impact of commuting. You didn't say anything about externalities, you was talking about ""running a commercial operation in a residential zone" which is same as musical lessons or any other work from home and honestly I don't even know why you care whether I repair my own car for free or helping friend or charging stranger, what does it have to do with (not) producing noise. I said I could understand noise/chemicals concerns, but if there is no noise and no leaking chemicals this ban makes no sense. Piano/musical lessons certainly cause noise emissions even outdoors, if you are direct neighbor, I don't see difference why they should not be blanket banned same as car repair. As I said this whole ban doesn't make sense, they should ban reaching certain noise level (which we have here in Europe) and then you can call police to investigate and fine and ban neighbor from doing so individually, but not making blanket ban on something just under assumption it will be noisy. > Gas-powered lawnmowers should be banned, and so should any form of leaf blowers, alone for environmental protection. Are lawnmowers and leaf blowers banned in Sacramento same sa car repair in own garage? I don't care about shoulda coulda woulda. If those are allowed, but at same time there is general ban on car repair, this ban can't stand in court if challenged, if they produce same noise, it's either both or none.
- rconti 4y ago
  Huh, I live in the heart of silicon valley on a postage-stamp sized plot of land worth a million dollars, and multiple nearby neighbors do car repairs; sometimes apparently flipping cars, sometimes for money on the side, sometimes for their own vehicles.
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  > can always go and rent a dirt cheap plot in an industrial zone Huh? Where? I don't know of any industrial zones near me that would rent out land to amateur mechanics. Maybe there's one far away somewhere, but you would want your shop to be reasonably accessible to customers.

Home auto repairs are a way for the poor to gain an income and build skills. Large formal garages see that as competition and arrange for these laws to slap it down.

mschuster91 4y ago

> Home auto repairs are a way for the poor to gain an income and build skills. These people, of whom there are less and less every year anyway as modern cars are essentially a mixture of a server farm and a chemical plant on wheels, can always go and rent a dirt cheap plot in an industrial zone, instead of making their profit on the back of neighbors annoyed by someone running a commercial operation in a residential zone.

akerl_ 4y ago
Sorry, what? Am I understanding you correctly that your recommendation is for lower income people to rent a plot of land somewhere just so that you don't have to deal with them using a specialty automotive tool in their garage?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > just so that you don't have to deal with them using a specialty automotive tool in their garage? FTFY: so that they don't run a commercial operation causing noise, emissions and traffic in a residential zone. Don't make profit off of just loading off the externality cost of your operation on the back of your neighbors. It's not that hard to grasp.
  - akerl_ 4y ago
    If I'm doing my repairs in my garage, what does it matter to you whether I'm constantly working on my personal cars or other people's cars?
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      Simple: built-in expectations. A residential zone comes with the expectation for everyone buying a property inside the zone that traffic will be the people living there and occasional visitors, that noise and emissions will be kept to the usual amount caused by people living and the likes and that car repairs are limited to stuff like changing your tires. If you're running a commercial shop fixing up cars, you are violating the expectations of a property in a residential zone: your property attracts more vehicle traffic, possibly even from heavy tow trucks, your property emits noise from all the tools or from vehicles running without (or with defective) mufflers, your property emits smells of fuel, chemicals or burning stuff. If you're just fixing up your own car, you cause way less of these emissions, and way less annoyance for your neighbors. In short: your neighbors signed up for peace and quiet guaranteed by the residential zoning, and you are violating that agreement.
      - ecshafer 4y ago
        Residential Zones are government inflicted tyranny. A basic car repair garage, a machine shop, coffee shop, barber, etc. basically cause 0 noise. The idea of zoning towns into different districts infringes on people's rights, and is also economically disastrous causing trillions in lost gdp in the US alone. Zoning needs to be abolished, or at minimum drastically relaxed to a more sane system like Japans. I have no issue with my neighbor fixing his car, or charging for it. Why would I?
        mschuster91 4y ago
        > A basic car repair garage, a machine shop, coffee shop, barber, etc. basically cause 0 noise. They attract traffic, pedestrian and vehicular. Vehicles need to be stored somewhere, which means either they abuse and block the street or you have a giant ass parking lot eyesore. > The idea of zoning towns into different districts infringes on people's rights, and is also economically disastrous causing trillions in lost gdp in the US alone. WTF, where do zoning laws infringe on people's rights? Everyone has the freedom to choose where to buy or rent a property, and if you're not fine with living in a residential zone, then buy a property in a mixed use zone! Re-zoning operations are more of an issue, but these usually have to be decided at higher levels of democratically elected governances anyway.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  They're talking about mechanics renting space so they don't have to do in their driveway, it has nothing to do with being poor.
petodo 4y ago
So you essentially say work from home should be banned, because that's also "running a commercial operation in a residential zone". If you have problem with noise or chemicals I can understand your concerns, but certainly not for running a commercial operation in a residential zone. Same goes for piano lessons etc. And regarding noise I wonder how are lawnmovers regulated if you have problem with car repair. My grandpa had his own workshop in his own house and can't imagine someone banning him from working from his own house, especially if he lives there longer and run shop longer than any neighbor who moved there.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > So you essentially say work from home should be banned, because that's also "running a commercial operation in a residential zone". No, because working from home doesn't cause negative externalities imposed upon the neighbors - quite the other way around, the fact you're working from home reduces the impact of commuting. > Same goes for piano lessons etc. Unlike repairing a car in a shed with its door open, piano lessons should not cause noise emissions. If you're giving musical lessons outdoors with neighbors being forced to listen, you deserve everything that's coming for you. > And regarding noise I wonder how are lawnmovers regulated if you have problem with car repair. Gas-powered lawnmowers should be banned, and so should any form of leaf blowers, alone for environmental protection. > My grandpa had his own workshop in his own house and can't imagine someone banning him from working from his own house, especially if he lives there longer and run shop longer than any neighbor who moved there. Which is why things such as "grandfathered in" provisions exist. It's fine if you choose on your own to move to an area with someone running a car shop, you knew that there was a car shop, but it's not fine for someone else to move in and run a car shop or other negatively impacting business that ruins other peoples' property.
  - petodo 4y ago
    > No, because working from home doesn't cause negative externalities imposed upon the neighbors - quite the other way around, the fact you're working from home reduces the impact of commuting. You didn't say anything about externalities, you was talking about ""running a commercial operation in a residential zone" which is same as musical lessons or any other work from home and honestly I don't even know why you care whether I repair my own car for free or helping friend or charging stranger, what does it have to do with (not) producing noise. I said I could understand noise/chemicals concerns, but if there is no noise and no leaking chemicals this ban makes no sense. Piano/musical lessons certainly cause noise emissions even outdoors, if you are direct neighbor, I don't see difference why they should not be blanket banned same as car repair. As I said this whole ban doesn't make sense, they should ban reaching certain noise level (which we have here in Europe) and then you can call police to investigate and fine and ban neighbor from doing so individually, but not making blanket ban on something just under assumption it will be noisy. > Gas-powered lawnmowers should be banned, and so should any form of leaf blowers, alone for environmental protection. Are lawnmowers and leaf blowers banned in Sacramento same sa car repair in own garage? I don't care about shoulda coulda woulda. If those are allowed, but at same time there is general ban on car repair, this ban can't stand in court if challenged, if they produce same noise, it's either both or none.
rconti 4y ago
Huh, I live in the heart of silicon valley on a postage-stamp sized plot of land worth a million dollars, and multiple nearby neighbors do car repairs; sometimes apparently flipping cars, sometimes for money on the side, sometimes for their own vehicles.
jasonhansel 4y ago
> can always go and rent a dirt cheap plot in an industrial zone Huh? Where? I don't know of any industrial zones near me that would rent out land to amateur mechanics. Maybe there's one far away somewhere, but you would want your shop to be reasonably accessible to customers.