9 ms·

Does not matter. If it is their property they should be able to stack cars in their yard and call it art if they want. Telling other people what they can do wi

by lrvick 4y ago

Does not matter. If it is their property they should be able to stack cars in their yard and call it art if they want. Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible.

rhn_mk1 4y ago
There's a limit to that. If you dump a barrel of something, and it leeches into the ground water, or washes out into the neighbor's yard, then what you do matters. Cars have fluids that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
mschuster91 4y ago
> Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible. One man's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. Fine if you're doing small scale car repairs on your own car in a residential zone, not fine if the smell from your hacky welding job disrupts my enjoyment of my property. If you want to do shit that impacts your neighbors, go and rent a garage in an industrial or commercial zone.
- akerl_ 4y ago
  Do you know of any examples of jurisdictions that recognize a property owner's right to protection from neighboring property owners' smells? I've heard several anecdotes about people whose neighbors picked up a hobby that generated downwind impact, but the only times I've heard of the neighbor being made to stop were in cases where an HOA existed.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    I'm German, we have a ton of court cases dealing with smell emissions (mostly, grills and heavy smokers), and these almost always end up with the emitter losing because they impact their neighbors in an amount that courts see as unreasonable. Basically, "don't be an arsehole" in legalese.
    - akerl_ 4y ago
      Interesting. It's worth pointing out that in general (though I'm still curious if there are examples here), the legal landscape in the US is weighted heavily in the other direction. One of the examples I'm directly familiar with was a friend who ended up moving because their neighbor picked up meat smoking as a hobby, and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        > and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house At that point, he'd probably get a C&D order filed against him for emissions and a decent fine on top as well. That's why I love the German system: people are protected from the influence of bad actors, not the other way around.
        Zpalmtree 4y ago
        smoking meats makes you a 'bad actor'?
        mschuster91 4y ago
        As soon as a neighbor is impacted so massively they are forced to move away, yes it absolutely makes you a bad actor. FFS, if you plan on taking up a hobby that causes pollution, do at least the bare minimum and check out with your neighbors first and install appropriate mitigation measures (filters and scrubbers). Or, if you want to be a really good person, offer your neighbors some pieces of meat in exchange for tolerating the emissions.
        dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        >As soon as a neighbor is impacted so massively they are forced to move away, yes it absolutely makes you a bad actor. Civic engagement with the goal of infringing upon your neighbors' right to use their property in whatever manner they see fit frequently meets these criteria. You are the bad actor. Furthermore, policy informed by sentiments like yours have been tried and failed. Strict separation of commercial and residential activity is why places like LA and SF are the sprawled suburban wastelands they are today. You wanna live in the city? That means dealing with city stuff, which means hearing and smelling your neighbors and maybe a good old fashioned riot every 50yr or so. If you would prefer bugs, heat and the occasional devastating weather event every several decades move to Florida.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    In the US, a lot of places have restrictions on raising livestock for example which can certainly have downwind impact, for example. My town is a Massachusetts right to farm town (as many are) though I don't know the exact details of the bylaws in my town.
- hyperpape 4y ago
  There is a point where this is reasonable (no one has a right to let dead animals rot on their residential property), but it's also possible your sensitive nose is ruining your neighbor's ability to enjoy his property. You're free to join a homeowner's association which will micromanage not only smells but also the location of your garbage can.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > sensitive nose Last time I checked, fuel and many other fluids in cars are carcinogens or otherwise toxic. Leave that shit out of any place that isn't adequately equipped to clean it up. > You're free to join a homeowner's association which will micromanage not only smells but also the location of your garbage can. Here in Germany, that is usually governed by city codes anyway, no need for an HOA - trash cans usually have to be in a separate room indoors (for large complexes) or in an enclosure (e.g. [1], the first grab off of Google). We don't need micromanaging HOAs (and don't have them outside of condo complexes), because decades upon decades of experience have led to a democratically agreed set of basic rules - in this case: society has democratically decided that they don't want trash bins standing around in the open, partially because that's a fucking eyesore, partially because free-standing bins just attract vermin and pests. [1] https://www.vidaxl.de/e/vidaxl-mulltonnenbox-fur-3-tonnen-207x775x115-cm-edelstahl/8720286334911.html https://www.vidaxl.de/e/vidaxl-mulltonnenbox-fur-3-tonnen-20...
    - hyperpape 4y ago
      Your own choice of example was the smell from welding. With regard to releasing toxic or environmentally damaging chemicals, you are on much more solid ground.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        For what it's worth, it would be better if people knew how to weld and how to prepare a workpiece for welding. Back when I worked on cars myself at a local hobby garage (common here in Germany, sort of the car equivalent of a makerspace), the amount of people who didn't strip off plastic attachments or removed paint was so excessive that my favourite shop imposed a rule "idiots setting stuff on fire or causing excessive smoking while welding have to bring in a crate of beer". I definitely would not want to live next to someone learning how to use a welding rig.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  Welding smells a lot less than someone smoking a cigarette, so I doubt people would complain about that. However, the noise of someone preparing stuff to weld with an angle grinder would definitely be annoying.
  - hyperpape 4y ago
    Unfortunately for anyone making a fuss about this, most suburbs tolerate the scourge of gas powered leaf-blowers every weekend, starting at an ungodly hour, and they're often louder than an angle grinder. Edit: my point is just that it's weird to police car maintenance specifically, rather than general noise ordinances and/or HOA rules (for people who choose to have an HOA).
  - Mezzie 4y ago
    I wish people took noise pollution more seriously. The same people complaining about car/mechanical work are the ones who have no problem with consistent leaf blowers/lawn mowers/parties/etc.
  - 83 4y ago
    Depends on the welding, stick welding gives off plumes of smoke and vapors. Tig welding is the opposite and very clean.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Or, you can just talk to your neighbors about it ahead of time and come to some agreement. I know this relies on having sane, reasonable neighbors which is not a given. I built a single engine airplane in my suburban garage over the course of six years, and it involved lots of specialized (and loud) tools. Air compressors, rivet guns and other pneumatic tools. Before starting, I visited both neighbors and gave them a heads up to see if they had any problems with it. We agreed on night and weekend curfews for the air compressor and tools and that was that. I swear, 90% of our laws we wouldn't even need if people weren't total assholes.
  - c22 4y ago
    When I moved into a denser neighborhood I traded out my small noisy air compressor for an old large one that operates very slowly. You can't even tell it's running from outside my garage, let alone outside my property. Even standing right next to it you can engage in normal-voiced conversation and no ear protection is needed. Unfortunately such machines no longer seem to be available new.
  - theginger 4y ago
    If one of your neighbors had said had just said no would you have just not done it? If you did it anyway based on when you thought it was reasonable to make noise until who would of been the assholes them or you?
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      I would have absolutely taken steps to address whatever their concerns were, including insulating/soundproofing my garage.
  - reasonabl_human 4y ago
    Whoa! Do you have a build log posted somewhere? What platform did you build on? I think I just discovered a dangerous new rabbit hole…
    - ryandrake 4y ago
- mistrial9 4y ago
  this thread has lost the distinction between light industrial zoning, community aesthetics and personal behaviors. In the "USA" is not really useful because, due to history, these laws in one State can be very different than in another USA State; that property ownership is generally a County level authority; and City rules can be different again, by zoning. There is no shortage of stupid, destructive behavior among humans, agree. However zoning is generally exactly to keep light industrial activity (poisons, smells, leaks) away from residential areas (children, people with illness, health). The personal Auto blurs that distinction and yes, is a source of poisons and bad aesthetics.. so there is work to do. Two items -- people from Asian countries, or the Global South, or others, do have really different cultural aesthetics than Germans about houses and yards; secondly there is a different fundamental agreement in America about how to allocate rights and responsibility to land owners. Is it not true that most Germans do not own a home? Is it true that the Catholic Church in Germany is the largest apartment owner, by a large margin?
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > Is it not true that most Germans do not own a home? Yes, only about 47% own the home they are living in [1] - partially due to a strong history of government-provided and cooperative-owned housing, partially because land values around suburban and urban areas have exploded so far that young people can't ever hope of owning anything. > Is it true that the Catholic Church in Germany is the largest apartment owner, by a large margin? Good question. The Catholic Church is extremely intransparent, so serious estimates can't really be made [2]. The real estate market is extremely fractured - even the largest players Deutsche Wohnen and Vonovia, with something like 550k homes, own just 2% of the market combined [3]. The Catholic Church has been estimated at about 130k units in the past [4], so they are while certainly a large player still not the largest, not even close. [1] https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_inhalt.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/katholische-kirche-das-versteckte-vermoegen-der-bistuemer-a-1269846.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/katholische-kirch... [3] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-deutsche-wohnen-miter-aktionaere-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-deu... [4] https://www.domradio.de/artikel/zwischen-investment-und-sozialer-verantwortung-die-kirche-als-immobilienbesitzerin https://www.domradio.de/artikel/zwischen-investment-und-sozi...
showerst 4y ago
If I move next-door to you and start a garbage dump out front, this affects you substantially doesn't it? People should have to pay for their externalities. I think the policy in question is stupid, but so is being absolutist about it.
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  The people who most commonly hold views like this are people who live deep in the sticks. It's ideal policy for people who live in a vacuum.
  - itsoktocry 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - hospadar 4y ago
      Yeah sick burn! (not sarcastic!) I'm put in the mind of the other thread today about wrongly judging something as over-complex. What you can do on your property definitely affects nearby properties and it seems to me that we need a fairly subtle, localized, maybe complex way to deal with this. Different rules in the city/country, different rules for the industrial park/a neighborhood. I usually lean pretty "do what you want on your property" - in my town there's a lot of "we must preserve the character of our town [and prevent apartments or anywhere poor folk could possibly afford to live]" folks who seem to always be white and living in the expensive part of town. I don't think any simple "TOTAL FREEDOM" or "NO MESSY CARS" rule is every going to be very just or effective.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I live in a semi-rural farm town with a lot of small scale farming and orchards. (It's a right to farm town which means people can farm and raise animals if they're over some (low) acreage.) No one generally pays much attention to rusty farm equipment, and yes, the odd broken down car here and there. But much as I dislike "Your grass is too long and your garden too unkempt" school of HOAs, it's not hard to see why neighbors in a neat suburban development might object to someone moving in with a bunch of junked cars on their lawn.
thatguy0900 4y ago
I think if you buy land in a residential neighborhood then you do owe some concessions to neighbors, not many people want to live next to your rooster coup or mosquito laden abandoned pool.
bumbledraven 4y ago
What are your thoughts on laws that prohibit a property in an residential zone from hosting, e.g. an auto body shop or convenience store?
- eppp 4y ago
  There should be jobs closer to homes in general. Building massive sprawl with no transportation isn't ideal either.
hansel_der 4y ago
while i appreciate the freedom sentiment, i would think that there's a stark difference in any freedom in regard to population density. in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard)
- hyperpape 4y ago
  > in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard) Out of respect for cultural differences, I won't protest you having this rule in Germany, but it doesn't sound great to American ears (I do acknowledge that Americans have disagreements about such things, but I think I speak for the norm that this sounds like people being busybodies).
  - Volundr 4y ago
    Depending on where you (want) to live in the US your going to have a hard time finding a home not covered by an HOA, and that HOA will almost certainly restrict your house colors. Not defending it, just observering that the difference for much of the US population is who is enforcing it, not if the rule exists.
    - hyperpape 4y ago
      I'm not a fan of HOAs, but there is a big difference between thinking that a hyper-local opt-in association is worthwhile and thinking that it should be part of the legal requirements.
- ponow 4y ago
  Yes, Germans do not take liberty seriously. You could handle the color constraint by contract, but it's easier to force people than bribe them to sign voluntarily.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Well, only if there is a "Bebauungsplan" (a plan that describes the requirements of buildings and surroundings, up to the type of trees for example). If there is not, and where we built there isn't, no such limits exist. Beyond your states general laws covering buildings and such.
lost_tourist 4y ago
If you signed an HOA agreement you have to abide by it. It's as simple as that barring local laws about junk in your yard
- lost_tourist 4y ago
  Downvote me if you like but it's true.
ethbr0 4y ago
Yeah. I get where the HOA side is coming from and believe they should have some ability to create communities like that for people who want to live in them. But what we should be doing is capping HOA-covered SFH at a max % of an area, to ensure people still have freedom to live in non-HOA housing if they chose. If someone wants to give up their freedom for pretty sidewalks, good for them. But it shouldn't be the only option. Instead, a lot of areas have local government mandating/empowering HOAs for the sole purpose of not having to deal with their community issues, at the expense of placing people under the rule of petty, non-professional tyrants.
deleted 4y ago
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HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
I agree on principle, but principle can have edge cases. I live on a 10-acre rural property, surrounded by similarly sized plots. A lot of the people out here are small business owners who run their businesses from home, so there is equipment and supplies all over their properties, etc. One of my neighbors likes to randomly shoot skeet and do target practice with his rifle. Another one likes riding four-wheelers, etc, up and down the adjoining property line. Hell, I have three broken down vehicles on or near my driveway for years and no one's said a thing to me about it. At least they're on their own wheels and not up on cinder blocks :-) How people want to live can be irritating, but we all moved out here for the space and more freedom to live our lives, so we have to try to get along. I'll put up with the noise from your shotgun at noon, but when you start setting off cherry bombs at 9PM, then I'm going to be pissed and you'll hear from me.
- showerst 4y ago
  I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much harder to sell _my_ house. If they move in after I do it's plausible that costs me a hundred thousand dollars or more, by no fault of my own. If they're on 10 acre lots with trees where I can't even see it, and my neighbor is just doing reasonable stuff to run a small business on ground with no zoning, who cares? On the other hand I can still hear it, so we might share similar positions on noise after hours.
  - ponow 4y ago
    What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.
    - 4y ago
dymk 4y ago
Thank god HOAs exist as a counterbalance to people who hold these opinions.
deleted 4y ago
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mc32 4y ago
Yes and no. Degrees matter. It’s the age old problem of why we can’t have nice things. People not being roughly reasonable. Yes it’s their yard, but it’s also our neighborhood. Yes they should have autonomy but also should know how to operate within civil society. There are limits. They need not be onerous and get down to small details, but people need to be roughly reasonable. Can I call in emergency scares and call them “artwork” of the performance kind? Things aren’t things just because I say they are a thing. One can’t walk thru a TSA line with a weapon and “call it art”.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > but also should know how to operate within civil society A society which threatens its members with state violence because they dare to repair their own property themselves on their own property is hardly "civil".
  - mc32 4y ago
    What do you mean? I think a few months is a reasonable time to have things on blocks to be worked on. Multiple years is unreasonable.
    - lrvick 4y ago
      Speaking as someone that grew up poor, people hoard any fixable backup cars they can in case their primary ride breaks down forcing them to invest in a weekend getting another beater running. Not everyone has the luxury of keeping all the cars they own in running order at once. The fact you clearly do not understand this is exactly you have have no business making rules for other peoples property. When you make laws to restrict behavior like this, you are really trying to get rid of the poors. If you want to help discourage this type of behavior long term, vote for better public transportation.
duped 4y ago
I feel like people get too absolutist about this. At the end of the day, people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's freedom to do what they want (aka do unto others, etc). The problem with "let people do literally whatever they want" with their property is that it infringes on my freedom to live happily/healthily on my property. If my neighbors blast music until the early hours of the morning and they don't turn it down when asked politely, is it "reprehensible" for me to call the police to enforce my village's noise ordinances? What if they're burning refuse and it spews over into my yard and ventilation? Or if they have an uncovered fire pit close to the property line? That's not even getting into the long term effects on the community, like if people store or dispose of hazardous waste on their property (we all share the same water table!). I don't think it's "fundamentally reprehensible." It's part of living in a free society that balances the rights of one against the rights of all.
- beiller 4y ago
  Could repairing an ev in your driveway run afoul of this? Sounds like yes. Leaking oil into the ground and air conditioning gasses into the atmosphere is already illegal. It sounds like preventing car repair is purely a nefarious regulation, whether it be an attack on rights to repair, or preventing depreciation of some over inflated asset. I would love to explain this away with simple ignorance. If so, let's just repeal this ridiculous regulation.
  - duped 4y ago
    I once worked in an area that had a problem with smokers littering. They put out trash cans and ash trays and heavy fines. No success. They banned smoking within the area. The littering stopped, because it's a lot harder to hide smoking than hide littering. Like another poster said, "this is why we can't have nice things." A few bad actors breaking ordinances that are unenforceable means the ordinances become more strict.
    - beiller 4y ago
      I'm curious how policing the no smoking is somehow easier than policing littering your cig butt. And so what, are the anti smoking police giving smokers tickets while ignoring actual littering of plastic and pollution cause hey, it's impossible? I don't see the problem as solved. But then again I'm being a bit ignorant of your specific situation.

by lrvick 4y ago

rhn_mk1 4y ago

There's a limit to that. If you dump a barrel of something, and it leeches into the ground water, or washes out into the neighbor's yard, then what you do matters. Cars have fluids that aren't exactly environmentally friendly.

mschuster91 4y ago

> Telling other people what they can do with their property is fundamentally reprehensible. One man's freedom ends where another man's freedom begins. Fine if you're doing small scale car repairs on your own car in a residential zone, not fine if the smell from your hacky welding job disrupts my enjoyment of my property. If you want to do shit that impacts your neighbors, go and rent a garage in an industrial or commercial zone.

akerl_ 4y ago
Do you know of any examples of jurisdictions that recognize a property owner's right to protection from neighboring property owners' smells? I've heard several anecdotes about people whose neighbors picked up a hobby that generated downwind impact, but the only times I've heard of the neighbor being made to stop were in cases where an HOA existed.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  I'm German, we have a ton of court cases dealing with smell emissions (mostly, grills and heavy smokers), and these almost always end up with the emitter losing because they impact their neighbors in an amount that courts see as unreasonable. Basically, "don't be an arsehole" in legalese.
  - akerl_ 4y ago
    Interesting. It's worth pointing out that in general (though I'm still curious if there are examples here), the legal landscape in the US is weighted heavily in the other direction. One of the examples I'm directly familiar with was a friend who ended up moving because their neighbor picked up meat smoking as a hobby, and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > and the wind was carrying nearly 24/7 smoke downwind into my friend's house At that point, he'd probably get a C&D order filed against him for emissions and a decent fine on top as well. That's why I love the German system: people are protected from the influence of bad actors, not the other way around.
      - Zpalmtree 4y ago
        smoking meats makes you a 'bad actor'?
        mschuster91 4y ago
        As soon as a neighbor is impacted so massively they are forced to move away, yes it absolutely makes you a bad actor. FFS, if you plan on taking up a hobby that causes pollution, do at least the bare minimum and check out with your neighbors first and install appropriate mitigation measures (filters and scrubbers). Or, if you want to be a really good person, offer your neighbors some pieces of meat in exchange for tolerating the emissions.
        dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        >As soon as a neighbor is impacted so massively they are forced to move away, yes it absolutely makes you a bad actor. Civic engagement with the goal of infringing upon your neighbors' right to use their property in whatever manner they see fit frequently meets these criteria. You are the bad actor. Furthermore, policy informed by sentiments like yours have been tried and failed. Strict separation of commercial and residential activity is why places like LA and SF are the sprawled suburban wastelands they are today. You wanna live in the city? That means dealing with city stuff, which means hearing and smelling your neighbors and maybe a good old fashioned riot every 50yr or so. If you would prefer bugs, heat and the occasional devastating weather event every several decades move to Florida.
- ghaff 4y ago
  In the US, a lot of places have restrictions on raising livestock for example which can certainly have downwind impact, for example. My town is a Massachusetts right to farm town (as many are) though I don't know the exact details of the bylaws in my town.
hyperpape 4y ago
There is a point where this is reasonable (no one has a right to let dead animals rot on their residential property), but it's also possible your sensitive nose is ruining your neighbor's ability to enjoy his property. You're free to join a homeowner's association which will micromanage not only smells but also the location of your garbage can.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > sensitive nose Last time I checked, fuel and many other fluids in cars are carcinogens or otherwise toxic. Leave that shit out of any place that isn't adequately equipped to clean it up. > You're free to join a homeowner's association which will micromanage not only smells but also the location of your garbage can. Here in Germany, that is usually governed by city codes anyway, no need for an HOA - trash cans usually have to be in a separate room indoors (for large complexes) or in an enclosure (e.g. [1], the first grab off of Google). We don't need micromanaging HOAs (and don't have them outside of condo complexes), because decades upon decades of experience have led to a democratically agreed set of basic rules - in this case: society has democratically decided that they don't want trash bins standing around in the open, partially because that's a fucking eyesore, partially because free-standing bins just attract vermin and pests. [1] https://www.vidaxl.de/e/vidaxl-mulltonnenbox-fur-3-tonnen-207x775x115-cm-edelstahl/8720286334911.html https://www.vidaxl.de/e/vidaxl-mulltonnenbox-fur-3-tonnen-20...
  - hyperpape 4y ago
    Your own choice of example was the smell from welding. With regard to releasing toxic or environmentally damaging chemicals, you are on much more solid ground.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      For what it's worth, it would be better if people knew how to weld and how to prepare a workpiece for welding. Back when I worked on cars myself at a local hobby garage (common here in Germany, sort of the car equivalent of a makerspace), the amount of people who didn't strip off plastic attachments or removed paint was so excessive that my favourite shop imposed a rule "idiots setting stuff on fire or causing excessive smoking while welding have to bring in a crate of beer". I definitely would not want to live next to someone learning how to use a welding rig.
newaccount74 4y ago
Welding smells a lot less than someone smoking a cigarette, so I doubt people would complain about that. However, the noise of someone preparing stuff to weld with an angle grinder would definitely be annoying.
- hyperpape 4y ago
  Unfortunately for anyone making a fuss about this, most suburbs tolerate the scourge of gas powered leaf-blowers every weekend, starting at an ungodly hour, and they're often louder than an angle grinder. Edit: my point is just that it's weird to police car maintenance specifically, rather than general noise ordinances and/or HOA rules (for people who choose to have an HOA).
- Mezzie 4y ago
  I wish people took noise pollution more seriously. The same people complaining about car/mechanical work are the ones who have no problem with consistent leaf blowers/lawn mowers/parties/etc.
- 83 4y ago
  Depends on the welding, stick welding gives off plumes of smoke and vapors. Tig welding is the opposite and very clean.
ryandrake 4y ago
Or, you can just talk to your neighbors about it ahead of time and come to some agreement. I know this relies on having sane, reasonable neighbors which is not a given. I built a single engine airplane in my suburban garage over the course of six years, and it involved lots of specialized (and loud) tools. Air compressors, rivet guns and other pneumatic tools. Before starting, I visited both neighbors and gave them a heads up to see if they had any problems with it. We agreed on night and weekend curfews for the air compressor and tools and that was that. I swear, 90% of our laws we wouldn't even need if people weren't total assholes.
- c22 4y ago
  When I moved into a denser neighborhood I traded out my small noisy air compressor for an old large one that operates very slowly. You can't even tell it's running from outside my garage, let alone outside my property. Even standing right next to it you can engage in normal-voiced conversation and no ear protection is needed. Unfortunately such machines no longer seem to be available new.
- theginger 4y ago
  If one of your neighbors had said had just said no would you have just not done it? If you did it anyway based on when you thought it was reasonable to make noise until who would of been the assholes them or you?
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    I would have absolutely taken steps to address whatever their concerns were, including insulating/soundproofing my garage.
- reasonabl_human 4y ago
  Whoa! Do you have a build log posted somewhere? What platform did you build on? I think I just discovered a dangerous new rabbit hole…
  - ryandrake 4y ago
mistrial9 4y ago
this thread has lost the distinction between light industrial zoning, community aesthetics and personal behaviors. In the "USA" is not really useful because, due to history, these laws in one State can be very different than in another USA State; that property ownership is generally a County level authority; and City rules can be different again, by zoning. There is no shortage of stupid, destructive behavior among humans, agree. However zoning is generally exactly to keep light industrial activity (poisons, smells, leaks) away from residential areas (children, people with illness, health). The personal Auto blurs that distinction and yes, is a source of poisons and bad aesthetics.. so there is work to do. Two items -- people from Asian countries, or the Global South, or others, do have really different cultural aesthetics than Germans about houses and yards; secondly there is a different fundamental agreement in America about how to allocate rights and responsibility to land owners. Is it not true that most Germans do not own a home? Is it true that the Catholic Church in Germany is the largest apartment owner, by a large margin?
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > Is it not true that most Germans do not own a home? Yes, only about 47% own the home they are living in [1] - partially due to a strong history of government-provided and cooperative-owned housing, partially because land values around suburban and urban areas have exploded so far that young people can't ever hope of owning anything. > Is it true that the Catholic Church in Germany is the largest apartment owner, by a large margin? Good question. The Catholic Church is extremely intransparent, so serious estimates can't really be made [2]. The real estate market is extremely fractured - even the largest players Deutsche Wohnen and Vonovia, with something like 550k homes, own just 2% of the market combined [3]. The Catholic Church has been estimated at about 130k units in the past [4], so they are while certainly a large player still not the largest, not even close. [1] https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_inhalt.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen... [2] https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/katholische-kirche-das-versteckte-vermoegen-der-bistuemer-a-1269846.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/katholische-kirch... [3] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-deutsche-wohnen-miter-aktionaere-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/vonovia-deu... [4] https://www.domradio.de/artikel/zwischen-investment-und-sozialer-verantwortung-die-kirche-als-immobilienbesitzerin https://www.domradio.de/artikel/zwischen-investment-und-sozi...

showerst 4y ago

If I move next-door to you and start a garbage dump out front, this affects you substantially doesn't it? People should have to pay for their externalities. I think the policy in question is stupid, but so is being absolutist about it.

Workaccount2 4y ago
The people who most commonly hold views like this are people who live deep in the sticks. It's ideal policy for people who live in a vacuum.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - hospadar 4y ago
    Yeah sick burn! (not sarcastic!) I'm put in the mind of the other thread today about wrongly judging something as over-complex. What you can do on your property definitely affects nearby properties and it seems to me that we need a fairly subtle, localized, maybe complex way to deal with this. Different rules in the city/country, different rules for the industrial park/a neighborhood. I usually lean pretty "do what you want on your property" - in my town there's a lot of "we must preserve the character of our town [and prevent apartments or anywhere poor folk could possibly afford to live]" folks who seem to always be white and living in the expensive part of town. I don't think any simple "TOTAL FREEDOM" or "NO MESSY CARS" rule is every going to be very just or effective.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I live in a semi-rural farm town with a lot of small scale farming and orchards. (It's a right to farm town which means people can farm and raise animals if they're over some (low) acreage.) No one generally pays much attention to rusty farm equipment, and yes, the odd broken down car here and there. But much as I dislike "Your grass is too long and your garden too unkempt" school of HOAs, it's not hard to see why neighbors in a neat suburban development might object to someone moving in with a bunch of junked cars on their lawn.

thatguy0900 4y ago

I think if you buy land in a residential neighborhood then you do owe some concessions to neighbors, not many people want to live next to your rooster coup or mosquito laden abandoned pool.

bumbledraven 4y ago

What are your thoughts on laws that prohibit a property in an residential zone from hosting, e.g. an auto body shop or convenience store?

eppp 4y ago
There should be jobs closer to homes in general. Building massive sprawl with no transportation isn't ideal either.

hansel_der 4y ago

while i appreciate the freedom sentiment, i would think that there's a stark difference in any freedom in regard to population density. in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard)

hyperpape 4y ago
> in most german citys there is a set of acceptable colors to paint your house in (i.e. there is most certainly some authority that tells you what you can do to your property in any regard) Out of respect for cultural differences, I won't protest you having this rule in Germany, but it doesn't sound great to American ears (I do acknowledge that Americans have disagreements about such things, but I think I speak for the norm that this sounds like people being busybodies).
- Volundr 4y ago
  Depending on where you (want) to live in the US your going to have a hard time finding a home not covered by an HOA, and that HOA will almost certainly restrict your house colors. Not defending it, just observering that the difference for much of the US population is who is enforcing it, not if the rule exists.
  - hyperpape 4y ago
    I'm not a fan of HOAs, but there is a big difference between thinking that a hyper-local opt-in association is worthwhile and thinking that it should be part of the legal requirements.
ponow 4y ago
Yes, Germans do not take liberty seriously. You could handle the color constraint by contract, but it's easier to force people than bribe them to sign voluntarily.
hef19898 4y ago
Well, only if there is a "Bebauungsplan" (a plan that describes the requirements of buildings and surroundings, up to the type of trees for example). If there is not, and where we built there isn't, no such limits exist. Beyond your states general laws covering buildings and such.

lost_tourist 4y ago

If you signed an HOA agreement you have to abide by it. It's as simple as that barring local laws about junk in your yard

lost_tourist 4y ago
Downvote me if you like but it's true.

ethbr0 4y ago

Yeah. I get where the HOA side is coming from and believe they should have some ability to create communities like that for people who want to live in them. But what we should be doing is capping HOA-covered SFH at a max % of an area, to ensure people still have freedom to live in non-HOA housing if they chose. If someone wants to give up their freedom for pretty sidewalks, good for them. But it shouldn't be the only option. Instead, a lot of areas have local government mandating/empowering HOAs for the sole purpose of not having to deal with their community issues, at the expense of placing people under the rule of petty, non-professional tyrants.

deleted 4y ago

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HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

I agree on principle, but principle can have edge cases. I live on a 10-acre rural property, surrounded by similarly sized plots. A lot of the people out here are small business owners who run their businesses from home, so there is equipment and supplies all over their properties, etc. One of my neighbors likes to randomly shoot skeet and do target practice with his rifle. Another one likes riding four-wheelers, etc, up and down the adjoining property line. Hell, I have three broken down vehicles on or near my driveway for years and no one's said a thing to me about it. At least they're on their own wheels and not up on cinder blocks :-) How people want to live can be irritating, but we all moved out here for the space and more freedom to live our lives, so we have to try to get along. I'll put up with the noise from your shotgun at noon, but when you start setting off cherry bombs at 9PM, then I'm going to be pissed and you'll hear from me.

showerst 4y ago
I think much of it depends on density. If we're in a tight suburb with 1/4 acre plots, my neighbor's weed infested yard with a broken down car makes it much harder to sell _my_ house. If they move in after I do it's plausible that costs me a hundred thousand dollars or more, by no fault of my own. If they're on 10 acre lots with trees where I can't even see it, and my neighbor is just doing reasonable stuff to run a small business on ground with no zoning, who cares? On the other hand I can still hear it, so we might share similar positions on noise after hours.
- ponow 4y ago
  What does it mean to own property? Does that meaning depend on a democratic majority? If so, then you don't have private property. Whatever restrictions you want to impose on neighbors due to high density can be done using contracts (added to deed). You don't need these laws. But people don't want contracts, because it's easier to force people to abide by rules that you can't get them to voluntarily agree too. These laws are a subsidy, because you'd have to bribe some people to sign agreements to accept certain restrictions.
  - 4y ago

dymk 4y ago

Thank god HOAs exist as a counterbalance to people who hold these opinions.

deleted 4y ago

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mc32 4y ago

Yes and no. Degrees matter. It’s the age old problem of why we can’t have nice things. People not being roughly reasonable. Yes it’s their yard, but it’s also our neighborhood. Yes they should have autonomy but also should know how to operate within civil society. There are limits. They need not be onerous and get down to small details, but people need to be roughly reasonable. Can I call in emergency scares and call them “artwork” of the performance kind? Things aren’t things just because I say they are a thing. One can’t walk thru a TSA line with a weapon and “call it art”.

yellowapple 4y ago
> but also should know how to operate within civil society A society which threatens its members with state violence because they dare to repair their own property themselves on their own property is hardly "civil".
- mc32 4y ago
  What do you mean? I think a few months is a reasonable time to have things on blocks to be worked on. Multiple years is unreasonable.
  - lrvick 4y ago
    Speaking as someone that grew up poor, people hoard any fixable backup cars they can in case their primary ride breaks down forcing them to invest in a weekend getting another beater running. Not everyone has the luxury of keeping all the cars they own in running order at once. The fact you clearly do not understand this is exactly you have have no business making rules for other peoples property. When you make laws to restrict behavior like this, you are really trying to get rid of the poors. If you want to help discourage this type of behavior long term, vote for better public transportation.

duped 4y ago

I feel like people get too absolutist about this. At the end of the day, people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's freedom to do what they want (aka do unto others, etc). The problem with "let people do literally whatever they want" with their property is that it infringes on my freedom to live happily/healthily on my property. If my neighbors blast music until the early hours of the morning and they don't turn it down when asked politely, is it "reprehensible" for me to call the police to enforce my village's noise ordinances? What if they're burning refuse and it spews over into my yard and ventilation? Or if they have an uncovered fire pit close to the property line? That's not even getting into the long term effects on the community, like if people store or dispose of hazardous waste on their property (we all share the same water table!). I don't think it's "fundamentally reprehensible." It's part of living in a free society that balances the rights of one against the rights of all.

beiller 4y ago
Could repairing an ev in your driveway run afoul of this? Sounds like yes. Leaking oil into the ground and air conditioning gasses into the atmosphere is already illegal. It sounds like preventing car repair is purely a nefarious regulation, whether it be an attack on rights to repair, or preventing depreciation of some over inflated asset. I would love to explain this away with simple ignorance. If so, let's just repeal this ridiculous regulation.
- duped 4y ago
  I once worked in an area that had a problem with smokers littering. They put out trash cans and ash trays and heavy fines. No success. They banned smoking within the area. The littering stopped, because it's a lot harder to hide smoking than hide littering. Like another poster said, "this is why we can't have nice things." A few bad actors breaking ordinances that are unenforceable means the ordinances become more strict.
  - beiller 4y ago
    I'm curious how policing the no smoking is somehow easier than policing littering your cig butt. And so what, are the anti smoking police giving smokers tickets while ignoring actual littering of plastic and pollution cause hey, it's impossible? I don't see the problem as solved. But then again I'm being a bit ignorant of your specific situation.