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> shareholders have to carry the can Shareholders hold shares by choice, so they don't "have to" do anything. If there are 22 years of records about which fin

> shareholders have to carry the can Shareholders hold shares by choice, so they don't "have to" do anything. If there are 22 years of records about which fines were paid, then the market must have already priced in this information a long time ago. Shareholders chose to pay that market price.

Ensorceled 4y ago
> Shareholders hold shares by choice, so they don't "have to" do anything. That's not how pensions, ETFs, index funds or pretty much anything works.
- nine_k 4y ago
  If some institutions track indexes, why don't indexes drop the chronically underperforming asset? If it's not actually underperforming, that is, a lot of the market does comparably, not much better, them $1B / year is just the cost of doing business, however cynical this may sound.
  - Ensorceled 4y ago
    That's it exactly, it's sociopaths all the way down.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    The rest of the market is doing much better. https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%3AVOO%2CNYSE%3ABAC%2CNYSE%3AJPM https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%...
- guerby 4y ago
  I wonder what would happen if pensions, funds and other would pass through voting rights of the share they own to the fund share owners. This way if you own a share in a fund or have a right in pension, if the fund chooses to buy shares of company A, when there is a shareholder vote of company A instead having the fund manager to vote, the fund manager would transmit this voting rights to you.
  - jagged-chisel 4y ago
    This would overwhelm the Little Guy, and he just wouldn’t vote. The reality is that few will go through the hundreds of companies to vote on all the things.
  - Ensorceled 4y ago
    I would literally get hundreds of votes a year from all the index funds in my savings plans. Everybody would give management their proxy, same as fund managers do now, or corporate governorship would grind to a halt as they never reached quorum at shareholder votes.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >That's not how pensions, ETFs, index funds or pretty much anything works. Yes, it's exactly how that stuff works. Why is it not the pension managers responsibility to make sure his clients are not invested in these things if there is financial risk? Or, if you decide to invest in a market-wide ETF, you are explicitly choosing to take the bad with the good. I love how people think you can outsource decision making to absolve yourself of responsibility.
  - Ensorceled 4y ago
    > Why is it not the pension managers responsibility to make sure his clients are not invested in these things if there is financial risk? That's the problem, there is no financial risk, check out Wells Fargo stock price. These are social problems these companies are spinning off, any financial problems are externalized. > I love how people think you can outsource decision making to absolve yourself of responsibility. Real "and yet you participate in society" vibes. Can you respond with a detailed plan for how my 80 year old father can get his pension plan to divest itself of misbehaving companies. Be specific.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      >there is no financial risk, check out Wells Fargo stock price. A Wells Fargo stock holder would have lost out on ~70% of returns over the last 5 years compared to a relatively riskless investment in sp500. https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%3AVOO%2CNYSE%3ABAC%2CNYSE%3AJPM https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%... Total return for past 10 years is 4.79% per year. https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/ JPM 10 year return is is 15% and BAC is 13%.
    - twelve40 4y ago
      When you sign up for someone (like a pension plan, and yes, it's a choice) to manage your money, you can't pick and choose individual stock. Just like when you go to a restaurant, you can't order them to go and buy a different kind of carrots because you have a major problem with what kind of carrots they use. However, money managers do have their metrics they are held up to, and if they generally don't perform, they get fired. At some point, a decision was made to work for an organization that compensates their employees via a pension plan vs. for example taking a salary and picking individual stocks personally, that is presumably a free will decision just like when I choose to get my food at a restaurant, I give up my option of picking every single ingredient in my food.
Mistletoe 4y ago
I checked the stock and was relieved to see Wells Fargo stock has vastly underperformed. 5y -33% Chase +21% SP500 +44%

Ensorceled 4y ago

> Shareholders hold shares by choice, so they don't "have to" do anything. That's not how pensions, ETFs, index funds or pretty much anything works.

nine_k 4y ago
If some institutions track indexes, why don't indexes drop the chronically underperforming asset? If it's not actually underperforming, that is, a lot of the market does comparably, not much better, them $1B / year is just the cost of doing business, however cynical this may sound.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  That's it exactly, it's sociopaths all the way down.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The rest of the market is doing much better. https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%3AVOO%2CNYSE%3ABAC%2CNYSE%3AJPM https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%...
guerby 4y ago
I wonder what would happen if pensions, funds and other would pass through voting rights of the share they own to the fund share owners. This way if you own a share in a fund or have a right in pension, if the fund chooses to buy shares of company A, when there is a shareholder vote of company A instead having the fund manager to vote, the fund manager would transmit this voting rights to you.
- jagged-chisel 4y ago
  This would overwhelm the Little Guy, and he just wouldn’t vote. The reality is that few will go through the hundreds of companies to vote on all the things.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  I would literally get hundreds of votes a year from all the index funds in my savings plans. Everybody would give management their proxy, same as fund managers do now, or corporate governorship would grind to a halt as they never reached quorum at shareholder votes.
itsoktocry 4y ago
>That's not how pensions, ETFs, index funds or pretty much anything works. Yes, it's exactly how that stuff works. Why is it not the pension managers responsibility to make sure his clients are not invested in these things if there is financial risk? Or, if you decide to invest in a market-wide ETF, you are explicitly choosing to take the bad with the good. I love how people think you can outsource decision making to absolve yourself of responsibility.
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  > Why is it not the pension managers responsibility to make sure his clients are not invested in these things if there is financial risk? That's the problem, there is no financial risk, check out Wells Fargo stock price. These are social problems these companies are spinning off, any financial problems are externalized. > I love how people think you can outsource decision making to absolve yourself of responsibility. Real "and yet you participate in society" vibes. Can you respond with a detailed plan for how my 80 year old father can get his pension plan to divest itself of misbehaving companies. Be specific.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >there is no financial risk, check out Wells Fargo stock price. A Wells Fargo stock holder would have lost out on ~70% of returns over the last 5 years compared to a relatively riskless investment in sp500. https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%3AVOO%2CNYSE%3ABAC%2CNYSE%3AJPM https://g.co/finance/WFC:NYSE?window=5Y&comparison=NYSEARCA%... Total return for past 10 years is 4.79% per year. https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/ JPM 10 year return is is 15% and BAC is 13%.
  - twelve40 4y ago
    When you sign up for someone (like a pension plan, and yes, it's a choice) to manage your money, you can't pick and choose individual stock. Just like when you go to a restaurant, you can't order them to go and buy a different kind of carrots because you have a major problem with what kind of carrots they use. However, money managers do have their metrics they are held up to, and if they generally don't perform, they get fired. At some point, a decision was made to work for an organization that compensates their employees via a pension plan vs. for example taking a salary and picking individual stocks personally, that is presumably a free will decision just like when I choose to get my food at a restaurant, I give up my option of picking every single ingredient in my food.

Mistletoe 4y ago

I checked the stock and was relieved to see Wells Fargo stock has vastly underperformed. 5y -33% Chase +21% SP500 +44%